Karazhan Illhoof

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flosr1
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Karazhan Illhoof

#1 » Post by flosr1 » 13 Oct 2017 00:19

I am not really sure where to write this, because i have posted similar things like that on the bug tracker before, but was told then not do it because, it is tuning and not bugs. i think in this case it is both.

Ilhoof doesn't spawn Kil'rek all the time. In some fights, he spawns correctly, he spawns only 1 or 2 times or he doesn't spawn at all. While this boss is not much of a problem with a balanced group, this is really tough or not doable with some weaker geared people in the raid if Kil'rek doesn't spawn correctly.

ALso the chains bug sometimes, resetting health all the time so that it is not possible to kill them, people need to be healed all the time or use bubble/iceblock not to die.

Also (and here comes the tuning part) way too many adds are spawning and it feels they also do too much dmg.

I don't mind encounters to be challenging, i actually like it. But this boss used to be a free kill even with bad geared groups in retail TBC. The way it is here, it is just way too overtuned.


I've been a bit more active recently and also did a few dungeons/heroics. It seems Nexus-Prince Shaffar's adds are overtuned in a similar way. This boss was toúgh in TBC retail but not that tough.

2nd boss shadowlabs heroic AND normal is a total mess, people need to unequip weapons to no kill the healer or each other, because they are doing way too much dmg. Same happens on BF heroic at the first boss. Atm, i am doing this heroic every day and everytime the boss mindcontrols me (feral tank) i kill the whole grp. Yes i know you are supposed to CC the mindcontrolled player here, but that doesnt even work fast enough. We wiped like this 3 times in a row a few days ago and the group was totally fine, i just did way too much dmg and killed casters and healers with 1 or 2 hits.

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natnat123
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Re: Karazhan Illhoof

#2 » Post by natnat123 » 13 Oct 2017 00:28

the chains bug is anoyying when it happens, as for kil'rek not spawning. the fight is actually easier without him. too much dps lost trying to kill kil'rek, i dont think the debuff applied to the boss when kil'rek dies is actually working properly. i dont think its giving the extra damage as its suppose to. overall though. mainly after the nerf. illhoof is fairly easy.

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Dunkelstein
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Re: Karazhan Illhoof

#3 » Post by Dunkelstein » 13 Oct 2017 00:57

I was in the same group and I have to say we were just really unprepared.
Sure the bugs screwed us over, we got to like 20% and would have killed it if chains, Kil'rek and aggro on melee imps weren't bugged, but we could have done better.

That being said, now that T5 is released it might be time to nerf Kara as a catch-up mechanic. Or wait until we've progressed through SSC a bit more.
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flosr1
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Re: Karazhan Illhoof

#4 » Post by flosr1 » 13 Oct 2017 01:00

i agree on that, but still, in TBC retail he did not spawn so many imps and they also did not do that much dmg.

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Re: Karazhan Illhoof

#5 » Post by natnat123 » 13 Oct 2017 01:08

flosr1 wrote:
13 Oct 2017 01:00
i agree on that, but still, in TBC retail he did not spawn so many imps and they also did not do that much dmg.
the imp fireballs i think is fine, spawn rate im not so sure about. doesnt seem so bad. the mellee damage is broken. way too much. and the imps should be tankable, currently with no threat table. they are not

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Fitzpatrick
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Re: Karazhan Illhoof

#6 » Post by Fitzpatrick » 13 Oct 2017 01:54

flosr1 wrote:
13 Oct 2017 00:19
ALso the chains bug sometimes, resetting health all the time so that it is not possible to kill them, people need to be healed all the time or use bubble/iceblock not to die.
The problem usually is they are "aggroed" on rDPS, which they are unable to reach, and bug out. Have the tank actually switch target to the chains. They should easily outpace AE threat and should cure the problem for you. Its not like the boss requires that much threat.
Also (and here comes the tuning part) way too many adds are spawning and it feels they also do too much dmg...it is just way too overtuned.
This is just silly. We killed this boss the first run through without much difficulty, in blue/heroic/lvl60 gear. You need AEers that can keep up a steady stream of damage for a long period. 2 classes should be more than enough. If you don't have 2 Rets, Warlocks, Moonkin, Mages, and Hunters in your raid comp, well, sorry. Its an optional boss. If you have 6 Arms warriors just skip it, or swap people/specs to work it out.
Dunkelstein wrote:
13 Oct 2017 00:57
That being said, now that T5 is released it might be time to nerf Kara as a catch-up mechanic. Or wait until we've progressed through SSC a bit more.
Kara has already been nerfed already (several bosses HP were reduced).
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Dunkelstein
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Re: Karazhan Illhoof

#7 » Post by Dunkelstein » 13 Oct 2017 02:10

Fitzpatrick wrote:
13 Oct 2017 01:54
Kara has already been nerfed already (several bosses HP were reduced).
I don't think you understand what I mean by catch-up mechanic.
Might still be too soon for that anyway though, since Kara gear is still very relevant for end content atm (SSC).
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flosr1
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Re: Karazhan Illhoof

#8 » Post by flosr1 » 13 Oct 2017 02:55

Fitzpatrick wrote:
13 Oct 2017 01:54
flosr1 wrote:
13 Oct 2017 00:19
ALso the chains bug sometimes, resetting health all the time so that it is not possible to kill them, people need to be healed all the time or use bubble/iceblock not to die.
The problem usually is they are "aggroed" on rDPS, which they are unable to reach, and bug out. Have the tank actually switch target to the chains. They should easily outpace AE threat and should cure the problem for you. Its not like the boss requires that much threat.
Also (and here comes the tuning part) way too many adds are spawning and it feels they also do too much dmg...it is just way too overtuned.
This is just silly. We killed this boss the first run through without much difficulty, in blue/heroic/lvl60 gear. You need AEers that can keep up a steady stream of damage for a long period. 2 classes should be more than enough. If you don't have 2 Rets, Warlocks, Moonkin, Mages, and Hunters in your raid comp, well, sorry. Its an optional boss. If you have 6 Arms warriors just skip it, or swap people/specs to work it out.
come on, don't act now like you are the only guild that clears this fast, we know how to do this boss, we also clear karazhan in 3 hours with a proper group. what i am talking about is, that this boss is not a freekill as it it supposed to be even if you have 2 or 3 "bad" people in the group. and it is bugged, it is not working properly. the boss being able to be killed with a proper group does not change that. it is not working and it is overtuned. and yes, in TBC retail it did not matter at all what group setup you brought there, you only needed an AOE occasionally, like 3-4 times per fight.

and btw. even if you "aggro" the chains, it does not solve the problem, it is still bugged.

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Re: Karazhan Illhoof

#9 » Post by Fitzpatrick » 13 Oct 2017 03:53

"Free kill" seems like the exact sort of thing that should be avoided.
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Re: Karazhan Illhoof

#10 » Post by natnat123 » 13 Oct 2017 06:06

flosr1 wrote:
13 Oct 2017 02:55

and btw. even if you "aggro" the chains, it does not solve the problem, it is still bugged.
yeah, aggro on the chains has nothing to do with the bug, they simply evade randomly. (allthough its rare)

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dgreenbe
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Re: Karazhan Illhoof

#11 » Post by dgreenbe » 13 Oct 2017 07:19

TBH someone killing this easily means nothing because this fight is RNG. Will imps spawn with 1x, 2x, or 3x frequency? Who will they aggro to? Will they hit them with melee hits that are close to 10x retail damage? These bugs, combined, probably require a higher priority for adjusting this encounter, at least by fixing some of the bugs. There seems to be disagreement about the chains bug, but in flosr's raid the chains had the reset bug at least 50% of the time--not rarely.

This should be a fairly consistent fight other than the mechanic of a healer getting chains, but instead sometimes it's easy (assuming the right setup, which perhaps flosr is right is something that is too demanding) and sometimes it's practically impossible with almost any group setup and gear.

In reality, as this even strongly affects fairly strong raids and T5 is out, it may simply result in people increasingly skipping Illhoof, which is also something that is undesirable. I actually like the DPS-race aspect of this fight, but the RNG wipe factor sucks.

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Re: Karazhan Illhoof

#12 » Post by flosr1 » 13 Oct 2017 07:24

last week, we had the chains reset bug up 100% of the fight, chains were not killable, because they resetted their health instantly, altho ALL dps attacked them. the only way to keep people alive was to overheal them.

if you really think, this is supposed to be this way, then i don't know what to say tbh :-)



also, if lvl 69/70 people are wiping on 2nd boss of shadowlabs NORMAL 6 times in a row, because they always kill each other, or if a feral tank kills the whole grp in bloodfurnace heroic 3 times in a row by oneshotting healers and casters, then there is something clearly wrong with tuning.

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Theblomb
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Re: Karazhan Illhoof

#13 » Post by Theblomb » 13 Oct 2017 09:51

The chains resetting health is most likely due to the thing Fitz mentioned, when a caster out of range gets aggro on them, they can't reach the player and starts evading. The solution to that is simply to let your tank/melee handle chains.

As for the imps I believe it comes down to placement and tanking procedure, most of the time the imps should be dead before they reach melee range of the caster, and if not, you can simply move away a bit to avoid their melee hit.

The times we've had Kil'rek spawn, we simply ignore him and let the steady aoe whittle him down, as he doesn't pose a threat in terms of damage.

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Anesthesia
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Re: Karazhan Illhoof

#14 » Post by Anesthesia » 13 Oct 2017 10:08

I believe Besrserk after 10 minutes is still broken
No one can see what's in my pocket.

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Dunkelstein
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Re: Karazhan Illhoof

#15 » Post by Dunkelstein » 13 Oct 2017 13:19

Theblomb wrote:
13 Oct 2017 09:51
As for the imps I believe it comes down to placement and tanking procedure, most of the time the imps should be dead before they reach melee range of the caster, and if not, you can simply move away a bit to avoid their melee hit.
This was actually also a problem that night. I had to devote 70-90% of my damage to loose imps despite us having over 9k aoe dps.
They just move too inconsistently, sometimes one or two run straight into ranged camp after spawning, sometimes five or more all at once. Moving away doesn't always work because the imps sometimes still follow. They have a very high movement speed and long melee range. Sometimes people get hit for 12k seemingly randomly and then see three imps move to their corpse.

Pretty much everything that could go wrong did for us that night for three or four attempts in a row. If just one of the bugs hadn't occured it would have been a kill.
So I have to agree with dgreenbe, the problem isn't difficulty but inconsistenty of this encounter. Why would anyone bother with this boss after an experience like that
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