[Rejected] Increase base arena points for 3s and/or 5s

[Gnurg]

tl;dr:
*regardless of rating
Do 10 3v3 games --> 400 arena points.
Do 10 5v5 games --> 500 arena points.

The Add another weekly Arena Flush thread is a suggestion that would help new PvP-players gain gear quicker.

What I see as drawbacks with that suggestion is...

• It halves the time you have to get those 10 games. Some players don't have time to get down 10 games within 3 days (which would be the time you have if there was 2 arena flushes every week).
• "Having" to play 20 games a week can be exhausting. Atleast if you will be facing the team that stomps you everytime.
• High rated teams would gain a lot of additional arena points, which doesn't match with the general idea of this suggestion, which is to help new PvP-players. It's like lowering the tax to help middle/lower class, but the ones who profit the most on it is the high upper class.

My suggestion is to increase the base arena points for 3s (~300) and 5s (~350). I think 400 for 3s and 500 for 5s should be fine. There should be no scaling to this if you go beyond 1500 rating.

Pros:

• It would help the new players in the same way as the other suggestion, except you wouldn't gain big benefits by having really high rating in 2s, like the other suggestion would.
• You could easily just hook-up some random other players for the games as no one really cares about rating in 3s or 5s, so you don't really have to relay on having a partner online.
• You don't really care much for the outcome, you just play the games and have fun.
• It's only 10 games a week.
• You could do all 10 games at the same time to complete the whole week's cap.
• You would likely find both your teammates and opponents, meaning that a set of PvErs at the same PvP-level could get together to play arena without worrying about any Wrathful Gladiators coming by to stomp them.

Cons:

• It would take some attention away from the 2s bracket, which is the "active" bracket.

I believe the changes below is everything required to implement this suggestion.

https://github.com/Elevim/TrinityCore/b ... m.cpp#L549

Code: Select all

uint32 ArenaTeam::GetPoints(uint32 memberRating)

{

    // Returns how many points would be awarded with this team type with this rating

    float points;



    uint32 rating = memberRating + 150 < Stats.Rating ? memberRating : Stats.Rating;



    if (rating <= 1500)

    {

        if (sWorld->getIntConfig(CONFIG_ARENA_SEASON_ID) < 6)

            points = (float)rating * 0.22f + 14.0f;

        else

            points = 344;

    }

    else

        points = 1511.26f / (1.0f + 1639.28f * std::exp(-0.00412f * float(rating)));



    // Type penalties for teams < 5v5

    if (Type == ARENA_TEAM_2v2)

        points *= 0.76f;

    else if (Type == ARENA_TEAM_3v3)

        points = 400; // *= 0.88f; // altered

    else if(Type == ARENA_TEAM_5v5) // added

        points = 500; // added



    return (uint32) points;

}

[Wilcox]

i vote aye / +1

[Bloodshade]

This is an option too I guess, but I really need someone to enlighten me - can the arena points formula be changed?

[Gnurg]

This is an option too I guess, but I really need someone to enlighten me - can the arena points formula be changed?

Yes, it can be altered. Rewriting the code below to match with the suggestion shouldn't be too complicated. https://github.com/Elevim/TrinityCore/b ... m.cpp#L549

Code: Select all

uint32 ArenaTeam::GetPoints(uint32 memberRating)

{

    // Returns how many points would be awarded with this team type with this rating

    float points;



    uint32 rating = memberRating + 150 < Stats.Rating ? memberRating : Stats.Rating;



    if (rating <= 1500)

    {

        if (sWorld->getIntConfig(CONFIG_ARENA_SEASON_ID) < 6)

            points = (float)rating * 0.22f + 14.0f;

        else

            points = 344;

    }

    else

        points = 1511.26f / (1.0f + 1639.28f * std::exp(-0.00412f * float(rating)));



    // Type penalties for teams < 5v5

    if (Type == ARENA_TEAM_2v2)

        points *= 0.76f;

    else if (Type == ARENA_TEAM_3v3)

        points *= 0.88f;



    points *= sWorld->getRate(RATE_ARENA_POINTS);



    return (uint32) points;

}

[keez]

The Add another weekly Arena Flush thread is a suggestion that would help new PvP-players gain gear quicker.

What I see as drawbacks with that suggestion is...

• It halves the time you have to get those 10 games. Some players don't have time to get down 10 games within 3 days (which would be the time you have if there was 2 arena flushes every week).
• "Having" to play 20 games a week can be exhausting. Atleast if you will be facing the team that stomps you everytime.
• High rated teams would gain a lot of additional arena points, which doesn't match with the general idea of this suggestion, which is to help new PvP-players. It's like lowering the tax to help middle/lower class, but the ones who profit the most on it is the high upper class.

My suggestion is to increase the base arena points for 3s (~300) and 5s (~350). I think 400 for 3s and 500 for 5s should be fine.

Pros:

• It would help the new players in the same way as the other suggestion, except you wouldn't gain big benefits by having really high rating in 2s, like the other suggestion would.
• You could easily just hook-up some random other players for the games as no one really cares about rating in 3s or 5s, so you don't really have to relay on having a partner online.
• You don't really care much for the outcome, you just play the games and have fun.
• It's only 10 games a week.
• You could do all 10 games at the same time to complete the whole week's cap.
• You would likely find both your teammates and opponents, meaning that a set of PvErs at the same PvP-level could get together to play arena without worrying about any Wrathful Gladiators coming by to stomp them.

Cons:

• It would take some attention away from the 2s bracket, which is the "active" bracket.

I dont really see the point of making another arena flush or getting extra points from 3s/5s.
Farming points in 2s is rather easy and doesnt take that much time tbh.

Now to break all of this down from what you said...
Halving the time spent in arena to actually get the points is not that great because you get less practice playing your comp.
Facing the team that "stomps" you is good for you if you wanna get better in arena.
High rated teams dont really care about arena points and usually spend all of it on transmog items or just gems.

And the real con to this idea is that people who have a lot of loyal "buddies" can just abuse this and farm 3's or 5's to get points faster than the rest of the players.

Honestly I dont even play but I read the forums almost every day and each time I see one of this suggestion its just weird to me because not only do you guys insist on having the easiest ways possible to get gear but you are turning TW into something that is far from the server I played on back in the day.

Much love, Keezxoyxz

[Bloodshade]

Honestly I dont even play but I read the forums almost every day and each time I see one of this suggestion its just weird to me because not only do you guys insist on having the easiest ways possible to get gear but you are turning TW into something that is far from the server I played on back in the day.

Much love, Keezxoyxz

I completely understand you, but back then people didn't face the problem of everyone having full BIS gear. Nowadays it's almost impossible to get a new toon good PVP gear. You have to farm 261 points per week for an eternity, because even people at 1500 rating have Shadowmournes and 4/5 wrathful.

[Gnurg]

The Add another weekly Arena Flush thread is a suggestion that would help new PvP-players gain gear quicker.

What I see as drawbacks with that suggestion is...

• It halves the time you have to get those 10 games. Some players don't have time to get down 10 games within 3 days (which would be the time you have if there was 2 arena flushes every week).
• "Having" to play 20 games a week can be exhausting. Atleast if you will be facing the team that stomps you everytime.
• High rated teams would gain a lot of additional arena points, which doesn't match with the general idea of this suggestion, which is to help new PvP-players. It's like lowering the tax to help middle/lower class, but the ones who profit the most on it is the high upper class.

My suggestion is to increase the base arena points for 3s (~300) and 5s (~350). I think 400 for 3s and 500 for 5s should be fine.

Pros:

• It would help the new players in the same way as the other suggestion, except you wouldn't gain big benefits by having really high rating in 2s, like the other suggestion would.
• You could easily just hook-up some random other players for the games as no one really cares about rating in 3s or 5s, so you don't really have to relay on having a partner online.
• You don't really care much for the outcome, you just play the games and have fun.
• It's only 10 games a week.
• You could do all 10 games at the same time to complete the whole week's cap.
• You would likely find both your teammates and opponents, meaning that a set of PvErs at the same PvP-level could get together to play arena without worrying about any Wrathful Gladiators coming by to stomp them.

Cons:

• It would take some attention away from the 2s bracket, which is the "active" bracket.

I dont really see the point of making another arena flush or getting extra points from 3s/5s.
Farming points in 2s is rather easy and doesnt take that much time tbh.

Now to break all of this down from what you said...
Halving the time spent in arena to actually get the points is not that great because you get less practice playing your comp.
Facing the team that "stomps" you is good for you if you wanna get better in arena.
High rated teams dont really care about arena points and usually spend all of it on transmog items or just gems.

And the real con to this idea is that people who have a lot of loyal "buddies" can just abuse this and farm 3's or 5's to get points faster than the rest of the players.

Honestly I dont even play but I read the forums almost every day and each time I see one of this suggestion its just weird to me because not only do you guys insist on having the easiest ways possible to get gear but you are turning TW into something that is far from the server I played on back in the day.

Much love, Keezxoyxz

It's easy to farm rating when someone is as good as you at the game and can 'easily' pick up rating. For a more average player, who can't make it past 1500 rating, they are stuck spending 2 weeks per relentless item they want to pick up. That is of course granted that they actually managed to get the AP bonus from the first win of the day every day of the week. So to make it to full relentless, they would need 10 weeks. For each Wrathful item, it would take them 4-5 weeks (again with first win of the day in bgs, depending on your rating). Helping the ungeared players to a point where they can contest the already fully geared Wrathful player should be a high priority, in order for them to actually bother sticking around to give arena a chance.

Facing the teams that stomp you isn't a good thing. Very often, that's a warrior bladestorming you 100 to 0 in just a few seconds. What else besides remorse do they learn from playing these games? It would be much better to play in a more "I don't care about the outcome" enviroment and just have fun with 9 randoms you pick up for the weekly arena points.

As for feeding eachother rating in 3s and 5s to gain AP faster, I doubt it would become a problem as the activity would be too low. It might be sufficent for those 10 games a week, that's it. 2s would be easier to farm AP anyways, as it's only the base value that I want to change.

[Gnurg]

Updated the suggestion with a plausible implementation (need a developer to confirm that it would work though!). I did simplify the suggestion, so there would be no scaling if you went past 1500 rating in the 3v3 and 5v5 bracket... not like anyone would go beyond that rating anyways.

All we need now is feedback from the users. Remember that the main goal of this suggestion is to grant new players an easier start to the PvP scene, by allowing them to pick up Relentless gear faster than before.

*regardless of rating
Do 10 3v3 games --> 400 arena points. (instead of 300 + scaling)
Do 10 5v5 games --> 500 arena points. (instead of 350 + scaling)

[Gnurg]

Added a poll to the post.

[Gnurg]

Shameless bump.

Even if we added the poll, it would be nice if you gave a reply to why you're in favour/disfavour of the suggestion. No need to write anything long, just give a quick brief explanation. It doesn't matter if the same has been said before.

[Saddie]

If it's only for the arena points with no additional rewards(wf sets and the likes) this might not be an awful idea, but keez does have a point, 80% of the teams in top 10 for 2s are the ran by the same few people, what prevents them from doing the same in other brackets?

[Gnurg]

If it's only for the arena points with no additional rewards(wf sets and the likes) this might not be an awful idea, but keez does have a point, 80% of the teams in top 10 for 2s are the ran by the same few people, what prevents them from doing the same in other brackets?

I don't get why that matters? I just want a static (non scaling) base value for doing 10 games in 3v3 or 5v5, which is higher than the current 300/350 to 400/500. If they reach high rating (which I assume is the problem?), they won't get any more rating per week (just the 400/500 AP). -- Not that I think anyone would manage to build up a lot of rating even if it was for this suggestion.

The overall idea behind the suggestion is to allow new players to be able to gain a decent amount of rating in a more fun and friendly environment than the 2v2 bracket (which is crowded with fully geared and experienced players). Increasing the arena points would motivate them to try out this option.

I don't find it fun to be one-shot in one rotation while playing my shaman and I am certain a lot of new players feel the same. Giving them some more casual games, where they can play with friends (careless of rating) and gain enough arena points to buy a full relentless set within a month's (in comparison to 2 months) time would be ideal.

[Cocopuffs]

woah people still make funny and very detailed posts about arenas here

[Doctor_J]

Think only way of revitalizing arenas has been suggested a few times before but was not wanted is to downgrade all wrathful items to relentless at the end of each of arena season to emulate a new arena season as we dont have any pvp gear higher than wrathful to offer and this is the reason why arena is dead as a lot of players are already full wrathful and have nothing to spend arena points on other than gems so they dont bother queueing or just que for the bare minimum games each week but this could also rebound too.

[Gnurg]

Think only way of revitalizing arenas has been suggested a few times before but was not wanted is to downgrade all wrathful items to relentless at the end of each of arena season to emulate a new arena season as we dont have any pvp gear higher than wrathful to offer and this is the reason why arena is dead as a lot of players are already full wrathful and have nothing to spend arena points on other than gems so they dont bother queueing or just que for the bare minimum games each week but this could also rebound too.

What do you mean by rebound?

A rebound is someone who you date/go out with to keep yourself busy and you use him/her to keep your mind off your ex who you still have feelings for.

You mean that they will be less likely to play 2v2, because they'll be playing 3v3 and 5v5?

How I view is that it's fairly complicated for new players to break through in arenas, due to the geared and experienced players. Certainly, a full reset each season might create the much-needed change to even it out, but it could have big drawbacks (i.e. PvE items get too much influence), which makes it too risky to implement.

My suggestion is a lite change, which goal is to create a more fun experience for the new and casual players. By increasing the points gained in 3v3 and 5v5, you would direct these players towards this fun environment, which might motivate them to stick to the PvP scene (rather than giving up after being stomped (week by week) in less than 1 minute by the bladestorming warrior). View it as Normal Games vs. Ranked Games from League of Legends, no focus on rating, just fun.