[Rejected] Disabling SM in arena
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ItchyVortex
- Posts: 1131
- Joined: 02 Feb 2013 19:22
Re: Disabling SM in arena
Remove SM from arena bringing plates in line to non-plates in terms of gear availability and making it possible to tune SM however you want without worrying too much about breaking this game more than it already is. It's a simple suggestion and I approve wholeheartedly.
Re: Disabling SM in arena
I'm not a PvP player so I won't voice my uninformed opinion about SM in PvP, but I have a general question:
Would it not be reasonable to at least have one season as a "trial" for a SM ban/PvP nerf? If that season ends up being no different, or somehow worse than previous ones, maybe just revert back to what we have now in future seasons? I guess my point is that it doesn't seem to me like it has to be a permanent decision.
Would it not be reasonable to at least have one season as a "trial" for a SM ban/PvP nerf? If that season ends up being no different, or somehow worse than previous ones, maybe just revert back to what we have now in future seasons? I guess my point is that it doesn't seem to me like it has to be a permanent decision.
Re: Disabling SM in arena
All right, I rarely post on these forums lately (rather choosing to just read various topics to stay informed) but here goes.
I'm going to speak my mind here as blunt and brutally honest as I can. If anyone is allergic to truth, feel free to hit the back button now instead of reading the rest of this post. Wall of text incoming.
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If simply disabling Chaos Bane isn't enough, then I want every single player in arena to be restricted to the 1800 rating WF weapons. That would be a truer step toward balance than anything else and far fairer to everyone.
Otherwise, this entire so-called endeavor to "restore balance to arenas" will turn into a mockery of rated arenas with huge double standards between how plate classes and non-plate classes are treated.
It's not fair to simply nerf plate classes while teams like Feral-Disc, Rogue-Disc, Feral-Rshaman, Rogue-Rshaman, MM-Disc, MM-Rdruid, MM-Ret, MM-Unholy will run around freely with LK 25 heroic daggers / LK 25 hc polearms / LK 25hc crossbows.
Every single one of aforementioned comps with above-mentioned weapons annihilate every plate-healer comp with sheer burst + offensive dispels + CCs (not to mention the fact that some of those teams are running Bauble of True Blood trinket on both players).
Speaking as Arms Warrior, it's hard enough to deal with the fact that any random retard with sufficient time spent here can just make a 0-rated counter-comp to snipe all the arena rating that one has earned (due to the fact that the pvp population is low enough to allow a cancerous thing like arena sniping to exist here). Worse off, they either force you to stop playing or they stop playing once you figure out how to defeat them and deny you the chance to earn your rating back from them.
Now, having to face this after being nerfed to 1800 WF weapons (because hardly anyone has 2200 WF weapons nor can get them due to being sniped repeatedly or without no-life'ing it in the dead 2v2 queue) while the said counters run amuck with the same LK 25hc weapons will make an unbalanced situation even worse.
And keep in mind this doesn't even address the unbalance created by all those cancerous double spell-dps / spell-dps + rogue / spell dps + healer comps who run around with heroic CTS / heroic PNL / heroic DFO / Bauble on both dps players (since these comps benefit from trinket procs and raw overall gear stats rather than weapon damage).
---TL;DR---
Bottom line - Either:
A. Disable Chaos Bane and be done with this subject once and for all.
B. Restrict all people inside rated arenas to 1800 WF and 2200 WF weapons (even tho less than a handful of active people even have the latter).
C. Do nothing and allow the status quo to continue, which as you can see has led to a dead arena queue.
Otherwise, there is no point in even having this discussion if double standards will be allowed to persist with platers and non-platers.
I'm going to speak my mind here as blunt and brutally honest as I can. If anyone is allergic to truth, feel free to hit the back button now instead of reading the rest of this post. Wall of text incoming.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If simply disabling Chaos Bane isn't enough, then I want every single player in arena to be restricted to the 1800 rating WF weapons. That would be a truer step toward balance than anything else and far fairer to everyone.
Otherwise, this entire so-called endeavor to "restore balance to arenas" will turn into a mockery of rated arenas with huge double standards between how plate classes and non-plate classes are treated.
It's not fair to simply nerf plate classes while teams like Feral-Disc, Rogue-Disc, Feral-Rshaman, Rogue-Rshaman, MM-Disc, MM-Rdruid, MM-Ret, MM-Unholy will run around freely with LK 25 heroic daggers / LK 25 hc polearms / LK 25hc crossbows.
Every single one of aforementioned comps with above-mentioned weapons annihilate every plate-healer comp with sheer burst + offensive dispels + CCs (not to mention the fact that some of those teams are running Bauble of True Blood trinket on both players).
Speaking as Arms Warrior, it's hard enough to deal with the fact that any random retard with sufficient time spent here can just make a 0-rated counter-comp to snipe all the arena rating that one has earned (due to the fact that the pvp population is low enough to allow a cancerous thing like arena sniping to exist here). Worse off, they either force you to stop playing or they stop playing once you figure out how to defeat them and deny you the chance to earn your rating back from them.
Now, having to face this after being nerfed to 1800 WF weapons (because hardly anyone has 2200 WF weapons nor can get them due to being sniped repeatedly or without no-life'ing it in the dead 2v2 queue) while the said counters run amuck with the same LK 25hc weapons will make an unbalanced situation even worse.
And keep in mind this doesn't even address the unbalance created by all those cancerous double spell-dps / spell-dps + rogue / spell dps + healer comps who run around with heroic CTS / heroic PNL / heroic DFO / Bauble on both dps players (since these comps benefit from trinket procs and raw overall gear stats rather than weapon damage).
---TL;DR---
Bottom line - Either:
A. Disable Chaos Bane and be done with this subject once and for all.
B. Restrict all people inside rated arenas to 1800 WF and 2200 WF weapons (even tho less than a handful of active people even have the latter).
C. Do nothing and allow the status quo to continue, which as you can see has led to a dead arena queue.
Otherwise, there is no point in even having this discussion if double standards will be allowed to persist with platers and non-platers.
Rest in Peace,
Sarah Melody Jones.
May 20, 1989 - May 12, 2018.
Beloved Girlfriend & Mother-To-Be.
When I close my eyes, I see you.
When I open my eyes, I miss you.
Regent- - - - - - - - -Regentt- - - - - - - - -Regennt- - - - - - - - -Regency
Sarah Melody Jones.
May 20, 1989 - May 12, 2018.
Beloved Girlfriend & Mother-To-Be.
When I close my eyes, I see you.
When I open my eyes, I miss you.
Regent- - - - - - - - -Regentt- - - - - - - - -Regennt- - - - - - - - -Regency
Re: Disabling SM in arena
I think regent's post makes sense. Being one of the most active arena players on the server for the last few seasons I can tell you that the current situation right now is leading to only more and more people getting discouraged from doing arena due to these "unbalances". As he said, you can limit weapons to 1800 WF ort2 WF wep (which makes sense too because we don't want the people who worked their ass off to get t2 weapons to not be able to use them).
As much argument exists for requiring skill to succeed, it is a sad reality that a lot of people are actually "carried" by OP PvE gear (implying that otherwise they probably wouldn't be able to cross 1500 rating). Although it might not be blizzlike, I think we have come a long way beyond blizzlike already anyways and so we might as well improve the current scenario rather than focus on that.
In a nutshell, my suggestion is to limit EVERYONE to only pvp weapons and i264 pve weapons because otherwise if SM is taken away classes such as hunters, ferals etc will actually still manage to pull of retarded damage as nyeriah and regent mentioned. Let's at least have a "trial" season as someone mentioned earlier and see how it goes because right now arena activity is going downhill. Thanks.
Edit: Might be a good idea to give current SM wielder's a Shadow's Edge so that they can use it in arena.
On another note, you might also include a modification with trinkets like Arena Tournament (arguably the most competitive private wotlk PvP server) has done. For example, limiting the maximum item level to be i271 for entering arena so that people cant use OP hc trinkets in arena (we all know how much DBW hc and sts hc makes a difference)
As much argument exists for requiring skill to succeed, it is a sad reality that a lot of people are actually "carried" by OP PvE gear (implying that otherwise they probably wouldn't be able to cross 1500 rating). Although it might not be blizzlike, I think we have come a long way beyond blizzlike already anyways and so we might as well improve the current scenario rather than focus on that.
In a nutshell, my suggestion is to limit EVERYONE to only pvp weapons and i264 pve weapons because otherwise if SM is taken away classes such as hunters, ferals etc will actually still manage to pull of retarded damage as nyeriah and regent mentioned. Let's at least have a "trial" season as someone mentioned earlier and see how it goes because right now arena activity is going downhill. Thanks.
Edit: Might be a good idea to give current SM wielder's a Shadow's Edge so that they can use it in arena.
On another note, you might also include a modification with trinkets like Arena Tournament (arguably the most competitive private wotlk PvP server) has done. For example, limiting the maximum item level to be i271 for entering arena so that people cant use OP hc trinkets in arena (we all know how much DBW hc and sts hc makes a difference)
Re: Disabling SM in arena
LOL THIS TOPIC THO
I think a better suggestion would be to restrict the ILVL TO join a PVP instance "arena" to 270 ilvl >> WF pieces as what gnurg mentioned not only Shadowmourne but PvE trinkets are also a big part of this imbalance....
Or do what it was in retail pvp *Tournaments* PVP gear restriction 277 *t2weopon* and PvE gear = 245 ilvl = ToC25normal trinkets.
I think a better suggestion would be to restrict the ILVL TO join a PVP instance "arena" to 270 ilvl >> WF pieces as what gnurg mentioned not only Shadowmourne but PvE trinkets are also a big part of this imbalance....
Or do what it was in retail pvp *Tournaments* PVP gear restriction 277 *t2weopon* and PvE gear = 245 ilvl = ToC25normal trinkets.
Professional Dps.
Re: Disabling SM in arena
Replicating the way AT chose to limit PvE gear might be the best afterall, though if I remember correctly the most "balanced" season they had was when PvE items over ilvl 264 were limited(correct me if I'm wrong).
[hide=""Balanced""]I say "balanced" cos lets get real the 2v2 format is in no way balanced enough to be the basis of competitive arena play, even Blizzard realized that as they removed season end rewards from the 2v2 ladder with patch 3.2.0 and have yet to add it back.
[hide=""Balanced""]I say "balanced" cos lets get real the 2v2 format is in no way balanced enough to be the basis of competitive arena play, even Blizzard realized that as they removed season end rewards from the 2v2 ladder with patch 3.2.0 and have yet to add it back.
But that is a whole other problem and we will have to live with the current situation due to our how our population is below the threshold needed for competitive 3v3 arena play.[/hide]Patch 3.2.0 (2009-08-04):
Beginning with season 7, players will no longer have access to the newest season's weapons or shoulder armor and will not qualify for the <Gladiator> title/rewards with ratings from the 2v2 bracket alone. Ratings obtained through 3v3 and 5v5 game play will be required for these rewards, while the rest of the newest season's items will remain available to players in all brackets (standard rating restrictions still apply).
Re: Disabling SM in arena
Funny how so many ppl that was against this change support it now . Also Relina you are right , most balanced season is indeed with pve restriction ilvl 264(tested and proved) . So basicly no SM , pve restriction to 264 and you will get as balanced WOLK 2v2 bracket as you possibly can .
Re: Disabling SM in arena
As a Medicore warrior pvper, I can say SM didn't change much for me, I still lose to good players and still beat the bad ones.
Over-all I think if you are going to limit SM, might as well limit some other PvE items too, insane amounts of damage is not being done by warriors only.
Over-all I think if you are going to limit SM, might as well limit some other PvE items too, insane amounts of damage is not being done by warriors only.
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ItchyVortex
- Posts: 1131
- Joined: 02 Feb 2013 19:22
Re: Disabling SM in arena
It's surprising indeed, this is the change I support the most but last time it was suggested it received terrible feedback.Dropdead wrote:Funny how so many ppl that was against this change support it now . Also Relina you are right , most balanced season is indeed with pve restriction ilvl 264(tested and proved) . So basicly no SM , pve restriction to 264 and you will get as balanced WOLK 2v2 bracket as you possibly can .
And other comps don't get sniped?Speaking as Arms Warrior, it's hard enough to deal with the fact that any random retard with sufficient time spent here can just make a 0-rated counter-comp to snipe all the arena rating that one has earned
Are you comparing bauble to SM or saying that it counters warr comps? Either way this opinion gets discarded.teams are running Bauble of True Blood trinket on both players
Re: Disabling SM in arena
I mean, we can also do what regent said and just make a item lvl restriction, that will help balance the human warlocks, mages, priests damage with double trinkets.
It would be nice if someone could make a poll so we can vote about this and see what the players want.
It would be nice if someone could make a poll so we can vote about this and see what the players want.
Re: Disabling SM in arena
It's funny how people talk about rogues/hunters doing high damage and such, yet there is no hunter or rogue in the top25 of 2v2 arena (except Greensmoker but he is inactive).
Anyway, the main problem is that people here play random comps in 2v2. Just simply don't expect to win, if you play warrior/feral and you are against warrior/paladin or something similar. Changing WF to Rele won't help you in this case. If you want to play 2s at higher rating either play viable comps only or dodge teams which can beat you like some other sm warrior / healer teams do here. (This was feedback to original Ribbaz's suggestion about lowering WF to Rele).
About removing SM and reducing the PvE ilevel in arena, I couldn't care less to be honest, however there is quite a big problem people are missing here and that is what will you do with people who already deleted their ilevel 264 pve gear and have just 277 ? They should suddenly start raiding Icc again on their BiS chars just to get outdated gear for PvP ? Especially getting 264 trinkets if you already have 277 ones. Same about warriors who can not get SE anymore, therefore need to use some random weapon with random stats since SE is superior to every other 264 weapon.
We are talking about high number of players so manually adding items to them is out of the question in my opinion.
Anyway, the main problem is that people here play random comps in 2v2. Just simply don't expect to win, if you play warrior/feral and you are against warrior/paladin or something similar. Changing WF to Rele won't help you in this case. If you want to play 2s at higher rating either play viable comps only or dodge teams which can beat you like some other sm warrior / healer teams do here. (This was feedback to original Ribbaz's suggestion about lowering WF to Rele).
About removing SM and reducing the PvE ilevel in arena, I couldn't care less to be honest, however there is quite a big problem people are missing here and that is what will you do with people who already deleted their ilevel 264 pve gear and have just 277 ? They should suddenly start raiding Icc again on their BiS chars just to get outdated gear for PvP ? Especially getting 264 trinkets if you already have 277 ones. Same about warriors who can not get SE anymore, therefore need to use some random weapon with random stats since SE is superior to every other 264 weapon.
We are talking about high number of players so manually adding items to them is out of the question in my opinion.
Re: Disabling SM in arena
Actually I dont think there is a huge difference between SE and WF axe.Boxis wrote:It's funny how people talk about rogues/hunters doing high damage and such, yet there is no hunter or rogue in the top25 of 2v2 arena (except Greensmoker but he is inactive).
Anyway, the main problem is that people here play random comps in 2v2. Just simply don't expect to win, if you play warrior/feral and you are against warrior/paladin or something similar. Changing WF to Rele won't help you in this case. If you want to play 2s at higher rating either play viable comps only or dodge teams which can beat you like some other sm warrior / healer teams do here. (This was feedback to original Ribbaz's suggestion about lowering WF to Rele).
About removing SM and reducing the PvE ilevel in arena, I couldn't care less to be honest, however there is quite a big problem people are missing here and that is what will you do with people who already deleted their ilevel 264 pve gear and have just 277 ? They should suddenly start raiding Icc again on their BiS chars just to get outdated gear for PvP ? Especially getting 264 trinkets if you already have 277 ones. Same about warriors who can not get SE anymore, therefore need to use some random weapon with random stats since SE is superior to every other 264 weapon.
We are talking about high number of players so manually adding items to them is out of the question in my opinion.
And I really dont belive anyone deleted their 264 trinkets.
Re: Disabling SM in arena
You sure? I have to keep my ArcanePVE, FirePVP and Transmog stuff in bags because bank full.keez wrote:And I really dont belive anyone deleted their 264 trinkets.
Re: Disabling SM in arena
Huge maybe not, I just said it is superior to any other 264 weapon. Deleting of gear was just an example as well as trinkets are just a part of a pve offset gear. What about, if you didn't obtain 264 boots, but you have got their heroic version straight away ? You should then rerun another icc just to get normal version of them ?
This is kinda the biggest downside of this suggestion, if there would be something which would automatically downgrade the items inside arena then I am fine with it, however I don't see how it could work, if this can't be implemented.
This is kinda the biggest downside of this suggestion, if there would be something which would automatically downgrade the items inside arena then I am fine with it, however I don't see how it could work, if this can't be implemented.
Re: Disabling SM in arena
Yea all of these things make it complicated but thats why i originally proposed to just remove SM (it would be more simple) but I see some ppl have different ideas.Boxis wrote:Huge maybe not, I just said it is superior to any other 264 weapon. Deleting of gear was just an example as well as trinkets are just a part of a pve offset gear. What about, if you didn't obtain 264 boots, but you have got their heroic version straight away ? You should then rerun another icc just to get normal version of them ?
This is kinda the biggest downside of this suggestion, if there would be something which would automatically downgrade the items inside arena then I am fine with it, however I don't see how it could work, if this can't be implemented.
I guess we can maybe ask the GMs to give a SE to ppl who want to use it in arena and they have SM in inventory.
We can make something happen especially with all the attention this is getting, just need a bit more feedback from the players.
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