[Rejected] Open up talent trees?

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Make all talents available? (See pros/cons below)

Yes, after it has properly been tested and balanced out.
151
51%
No, those talents need to stay disabled until TBC and WotLK.
148
49%
 
Total votes: 299

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Roel
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[Rejected] Open up talent trees?

#1 » Post by Roel » 26 Jul 2015 16:32

The lower part of the talent trees was disabled because raids would need extra buffs with those talents. But now I am looking for better ways to buff raid content and for a way to counter the mana replenishment talents. Something that would need to be addressed anyway when we hit TBC. However before spending too much time on this, I would like to see how many people actually want this.

Let's assume that we find better buffing methods after lots of testing that would make this a viable option. Would you rather want to have all talents available or keep it like what we have now? (which is closer to the talent trees in Vanilla)

Pros:
- Considering that Molten Core is an easy raid and has already been cleared, currently would be the best time to test some things.
- More class features and abilities can give more enjoyment in the long run, especially for healers and casters because we don't have downranking like in Vanilla.
- The extra talents should make classes more balanced which is especially important in PvP.
- More viable specs and freedom of talents (51 points in one tree or hybrid).

Cons:
- Lots of extra tweaking that we will need to do for raids, changing buffs/debuffs back and forth.
- How that affects players: your enjoyment of raiding may vary for the next weeks/month until we have a balanced solution. Not everything can be tested outside of a proper 40 man raid (could also be done at a PTR).
- Less Vanilla feeling?

Previous thread: http://www.primalwow.org/forum/viewtopi ... 23&t=15852

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Asus
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Re: Open up talent trees?

#2 » Post by Asus » 26 Jul 2015 16:45

Alliance Hunter 60 - Asus

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Roel
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Re: Open up talent trees?

#3 » Post by Roel » 26 Jul 2015 16:53

If the poll keeps going like this, it will save me a lot of time. Would still appreciate some arguments to get a better understanding of what people want.

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.Abcess

Re: Open up talent trees?

#4 » Post by .Abcess » 26 Jul 2015 17:00

With all talent points available to all classes, I'm not sure how you'd seriously threaten the tanks, short of making each boss attack hit for ridiculous amounts. I remember when ICC was released, they had to debuff us tanks with -30% dodge, just to ensure there was some risk to our lives, without making each blow hit for 80% of our health pool.

WIthout that threat, there is really no challenge to a raid. On the other hand, if MC Is already that easy you have that problem now, so openning the trees up isn't going to introduce the problem, probably just make it a bit differenet.

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Roel
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Re: Open up talent trees?

#5 » Post by Roel » 26 Jul 2015 17:08

Abcess wrote:With all talent points available to all classes, I'm not sure how you'd seriously threaten the tanks, short of making each boss attack hit for ridiculous amounts. I remember when ICC was released, they had to debuff us tanks with -30% dodge, just to ensure there was some risk to our lives, without making each blow hit for 80% of our health pool.

WIthout that threat, there is really no challenge to a raid. On the other hand, if MC Is already that easy you have that problem now, so openning the trees up isn't going to introduce the problem, probably just make it a bit differenet.
I said that you can vote assuming that such problems are addressed. So that tanks will still be in danger.

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Cleofatra

Re: Open up talent trees?

#6 » Post by Cleofatra » 26 Jul 2015 18:20

Won't someone think of the PvPers!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh2sWSVRrmo

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Marsoupial
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Re: Open up talent trees?

#7 » Post by Marsoupial » 26 Jul 2015 18:25

I absolutely think the trees should be opened up. A number of specs aren't viable because they don't have access to talents which are integral to their playstyles. As was pointed out, we seem to already have the problem of raids being too easy now, so I don't see this making it much worse. Obviously endgame will need continued tweaking as we progress as a server, but if that's going to be happening anyway (which it should), I'd rather see every class get access to its full spec.

You might also consider blocking out specific talents for some classes (if that's possible - I don't really know). A move like that would take more careful consideration and playtesting, but I think it might also be our best bet for long-term balance.

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manoroar
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Re: Open up talent trees?

#8 » Post by manoroar » 26 Jul 2015 18:44

These are my opinions. Feel free to agree or disagree with them as you see fit.

As much as I'd like to kill Vanilla content while Titan's Gripping a BRE and an Ashkandi I think that opening up talent trees would cause more balance issues than it would fix. PvP was never balanced. As far as PvP is concerned opening talent trees up would just replace what everyone is complaining about now with new problem classes. At the moment I've seen every class excelling in Warsong @ 60 depending on who's playing it. If anything needs a pvp nerf @60 you could considering reducing the in BG damage of revenge (so melees can actually 1v1 a warrior if they can outplay them, but tanks are going to need revenge damage to hold threat in PvE once raid DPS picks up so it'd have to be pvp only) and perhaps putting a (short and pvp only) CD on devouring plague so shadowpriests don't kill whole teams that don't have dispell from 40yrds away with double dots while running around a stump. The classes that are currently "strong" in PvP are the same classes that have always traditionally been so in Vanilla PvP. Honestly, I think most of the other issues with PvP at the moment stem from people PvPing in bad specs, with bad gear, and without a clue of what they're actually trying to accomplish. As far as Arenas go, 2v2's are notorious for being retardedly imbalanced and don't reflect class balance in any meaningful way and that's all I ever see happening at 60 atm so any complaints from that end are simply dumb.

The PvE healing issue however is troubling because it's pigeon-holing healers into regen stacking builds if they want to be effective and efficient, and ontop of that seeing those reduced numbers must suck, I know I'd be upset as a former healer of multiple years. If you wanted to open up any specs to full 51 talent point mark perhaps doing it only with the Holy/Resto trees of the respective healing classes just to throw them a bone? Another thing, these bosses in raid (aka MC at the moment) should be hitting harder. Over the weeks I've some people main tanking/off tanking in some really questionable gear. Like Warriors stacking stam with low armor numbers and sub 350 defense levels of bad. Those tanks would get absolutely shit on with that gear on an actual vanilla private server in the same content. Perhaps look into amping up the baseline melee damage on trash mobs/bosses slightly (5-10%) or so just to make the tanks have to sweat a little. Like it should be possible to drop Tanks on Molten Giants/Destroyers in MC if your healers are slacking with tanks in PBiS gear, not to mention the actual bosses. In its current state 90% of your heal core would have to DC to drop a tank on anything but Rag. So perhaps doing that in conjunction with opening up the healing trees could be a potential avenue of exploration.

As far as opening up the talents to allow people to play less conventional specs ( ex. dual wielding for shamans, prot paladins, +spellpower bandage warrior or w/e janky crap ppl want to play). Even if you did, the itemization isn't there to truly make those specs viable at the moment and won't be until AQ40 at the earliest, but in all honestly not til TBC. So what would be the point of undermining the entire pretense of "vanilla" so you can pander to a small segment of the population who want to be special snowflakes instead of just playing something that's actually viable in a given role?

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.truupi

Re: Open up talent trees?

#9 » Post by .truupi » 26 Jul 2015 19:28

I pretty much support the idea to at least try the whole thing out as there isn't much to loose - instead, we can gather experience with it. I have to agree that it would somehow 'ruin' the Vanilla feeling but that feeling is ruined in a lot of ways already. What Prime and his team is trying to do here is forcing the server in some ways to the opposite of what the 3.3.5 client provides us. The classes in this client are balanced to the 51 point talents and at least for that fact we should try out what those talents would do with the server.

Though I played retail in the 3.3.5 client I can hardly remember how, for instance, PVP was like on 60 unfortunately. However, the private server I come from (TauriWoW, 3k players, long history, blizzlike) used the 3.0.1 client for a whole year in TBC (Sunwell) content before evolving into a full Lich King server on a 3.3.5 client. People could get achievements and had all the benefits of WoTLK but raided Black Temple and Sunwell and, the most important, every talent was opened up (to 51 point talents on @70). The server that time was marvelous! Although I'm speaking about TBC here, the classes were pretty much balanced, PVP and Season 4 was shining and KJ was still a freaking hard boss to beat. This is the only positive experience I have with opened up talent on a non-WoTLK content but at least for the sake of those memories I'm definitely supporting the idea to at least try this thing out. If the Primal staff can really figure out a way to balance things that way, then we are good to continue - if not and the gameplay sucks then we at least tried it out and there will be much less qq about enabling them.

All in all, at least for a week of a try, my answer is yes.

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.fadeing

Re: Open up talent trees?

#10 » Post by .fadeing » 26 Jul 2015 22:40

supporting the talent open up ! :) when i joined the server i thought its gonna be like that , and i would definetly love to try it out having all talents and everything like wotlk, but only having vanilia content (to be honest im waiting for the tbc part especially :) tbc with wotlk stuff would be amazing ! )

balancing might be a problem tho , we must see how it works . also the vanillia feeling will still be up i think since we are in the content , that gives you the feeling mostly i think , various talents and spells gives even more enjoyment to the game , but the feeing will be kept at vanilla or atleast for me . not sure how others feel about it to be honest .

and agreed with lolwut , i played on that server too , was fun all the way . (exept the scripting parts :D lal)

thumbs up for your idea Prime

randomy

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azreal313
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Re: Open up talent trees?

#11 » Post by azreal313 » 26 Jul 2015 23:05

Opening up the talent trees would make classes that are dogshit actually useful in raid and PvP which I would really appreciate, I wanted to roll a boomkin until I realised that I won't have Starfall, Increased Spell Damage etc because I can only get moonkin form and then nothing else, it really turned me off of the game. I see no harm in giving it a try and if its a mess then just turn it off, I think it could be fun seeing what talent builds people come up with.

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jidakra
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Re: Open up talent trees?

#12 » Post by jidakra » 26 Jul 2015 23:21

It's not going to make anything worse since the talents were designed with 51 points in mind. It can only make things more balanced/easier to balance. The vanilla "feel" is completely overrated and doesn't apply because the talents are completely different to begin with.

From a balance and gameplay standpoint, definitely open them up.

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.ithril11

Re: Open up talent trees?

#13 » Post by .ithril11 » 26 Jul 2015 23:27

Heya Prime, and fellow Primal-WoW players,

I think honestly this is where a PTR or even a private test realm could come in handy. Implement these changes and allow select groups of players to come test the mechanics and raids with them enabled. I'm not sure how much it would cost resources wise, but I would think it'd be the way to go. I voted no for now, because I have no way of seeing these changes in action, and I don't want them to just come to live for "testing" this "testing" should be done on a private realm.

(ps: <Maple Syrup> would most likely test that for you)

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nighto
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Re: Open up talent trees?

#14 » Post by nighto » 26 Jul 2015 23:33

Prime wrote:The lower part of the talent trees was disabled because raids would need extra buffs with those talents. But now I am looking for better ways to buff raid content and for a way to counter the mana replenishment talents. Something that would need to be addressed anyway when we hit TBC. However before spending too much time on this, I would like to see how many people actually want this.

Let's assume that we find better buffing methods after lots of testing that would make this a viable option. Would you rather want to have all talents available or keep it like what we have now? (which is closer to the talent trees in Vanilla)

Pros:
- Considering that Molten Core is an easy raid and has already been cleared, currently would be the best time to test some things.
- More class features and abilities can give more enjoyment in the long run, especially for healers and casters because we don't have downranking like in Vanilla.
- The extra talents should make classes more balanced which is especially important in PvP.
- More viable specs and freedom of talents (51 points in one tree or hybrid).

Cons:
- Lots of extra tweaking that we will need to do for raids, changing buffs/debuffs back and forth.
- How that affects players: your enjoyment of raiding may vary for the next weeks/month until we have a balanced solution. Not everything can be tested outside of a proper 40 man raid.
- Less Vanilla feeling?

Previous thread: http://www.primalwow.org/forum/viewtopi ... 23&t=15852
I joined this server for the concept, the idea of vanilla in WoTLK mechanics. I have already played vanilla content in WoTLK with twinks in other servers. I get it, you'll make things more difficult in raid, but I found the fun in talents with tweaking, testing new builds, not only for pve, but also for pvp.

I agree that raids can be tweaked to match the difficulty with the talents, but pvp will be very difficult to balance. Vanilla content does not have resilience, but there are many many talents beyond 31 points that will make pvp boring as f**k (just to give an example using my class. I can easily talent 51 points in destruction and kill people -in bgs, or arenas- with one or two chaos bolts.

Now, you could lower the damage of spells in arenas and bgs, and increase the difficulty in raids, and keep tweaking and tweaking until people are ok with things. Or you can save yourself some time, and keep things like they are. You'll save a lot of time.

Also, please think of the server progression. I, personally, would be bored of playing with the same talents through all vanilla, bc and wotlk, everything would've been tested, every build, there would literally be no fun in specs and builds. Unlocking them with each expansion is a rather exciting concept that many people seem to have forgotten and just say yes to this without thinking of the future expansion content to be released.
Last edited by Guest on 26 Jul 2015 23:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Roel
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Re: Open up talent trees?

#15 » Post by Roel » 26 Jul 2015 23:37

ithril11 wrote:Heya Prime, and fellow Primal-WoW players,

I think honestly this is where a PTR or even a private test realm could come in handy. Implement these changes and allow select groups of players to come test the mechanics and raids with them enabled. I'm not sure how much it would cost resources wise, but I would think it'd be the way to go. I voted no for now, because I have no way of seeing these changes in action, and I don't want them to just come to live for "testing" this "testing" should be done on a private realm.

(ps: <Maple Syrup> would most likely test that for you)
A PTR can indeed be used if required and you have an entire raid group to test it. Voting "No" for that reason would give false results meaning I won't even spend time on this as I would believe that you are not interested in this idea...

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