[Rejected] Lowering/Removing the ICC Buff

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Ragnorak
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[Rejected] Lowering/Removing the ICC Buff

#1 » Post by Ragnorak » 14 Nov 2014 13:12

Ok this is kind of a controversial topic and it has been one that has been debated multiple times in the past but given today's current raiding situation I believe it's time once again to seriously consider this topic.
Atm our current ICC buff is at 20%, this was lowered from 30% a couple of years back. The reason why some staff members don't like the idea of touching the ICC buff is because of the complaints it caused last time. However if we look at the situation now there are several strong arguments to support lowering the ICC once again or completely removing it.

1. The ICC buff was introduced by Blizzard towards the end of the Wrath of the Lich King expansion in an attempt to allow everyone who was unable to fully clear ICC a chance to do so before the servers updated to Cataclysm. Since on TrueWoW we have never had any plans to update to Cataclysm in the past and present the truth is that we never should've had the ICC buff in the first place. Even if the removal of the ICC buff makes ICC more challenging causing more raids to be unable to faceroll half the instance in a matter of hours, it's not like this will completely prevent people from being able to get the chance to fully clear the raid eventually since we're staying on WotLK indefinitely for the time being.

2. Gear inflation makes it so that even with the ICC buff theoretically removed, people will still most likely be able to clear the raid. With the average player having over 6k gs and half the plate mdps population wielding Shadowmourne their gear is still going to be able to make the raid very possible to complete with ease. So even though the removal of the ICC buff will make it much harder for low geared players to clear ICC (which it's supposed to be since it is the end game raid) half of those players will still end up getting carried by other people's gear.

3. Atm on Horde side LK25HC is being downed 4 times weekly and I believe the count is roughly the same on the Alliance as well. In other words... LK25HC is currently being farmed... One of the biggest challenges in WotLK is currently being farmed with ease and this is going to eventually lead to stagnation and boredom. After your 15th+ LK25HC kill things start to get a little old especially if you're downing LK25HC without even wiping anymore. With only Ruby Sanctum Heroic left to be open, there is not much else for PvE players to anticipate in this expansion, yes you have your people who are just gear whores but then you have people who raid to help their friends or because they like raiding in general and they want to have some form of challenge to overcome when they tackle these bosses. And to be honest farming anything in WoW is probably one of the, if not the most mind-numbingly boring aspects of this game. So when people get bored of what is supposed to be one of the hardest challenges in this expansion they will begin to look for other ways to challenge themselves, and currently with WoD being released, the temptation for some players to join retail is much higher especially if they believe that there is nothing left for them in WotLK. LK25HC shouldn't be a guaranteed kill each time you reach him, which is part of what makes the encounter more interesting.

If completely removing the ICC buff is too much of a change at once then reduce it to 10% and perhaps plan on eventually reducing it down to 0%. I mean if the day ever comes when the question "Will TrueWoW ever upgrade to Cata" becomes more of a possibility then we can start gradually increasing the ICC buff in order to make sure everyone has been able to experience ICC fully.

Would seriously like to hear everyone else's thoughts on this as well.
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Re: Lowering/Removing the ICC Buff

#2 » Post by Kindzadza » 14 Nov 2014 13:20

I completly agree with this and not about just lowering the buff, but to remove it once it for all. There is really no challenge at all if you are fully geared. Also new 80s wouldn't be able to jump straight to ICC25 heroic or 10 heroic in that matter so they will be forced to gear through the normal modes first increasing the life cycle of the hero a bit. If this doesn't happen you will get bored eventually.

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Re: Lowering/Removing the ICC Buff

#3 » Post by Blacklustersoldier » 14 Nov 2014 13:33

my suggestion is to fix the npc and allow the buff to be removed by the hardcore raiders if they wish to do it. from my pov, lowering or fully removing is a no go. By doing this you will achieve 2 things:
- only the most elitist people will be able to clear the heroic mode due to them being elitist and bis, and whatever
- majority of the population who won't be able to do that, may end up leaving because nobody will invite them into to raids anymore due to their lack of gear and skill, and let's be honest there are a ton of people who lack skill. I personally would like to see retards wielding 25hc weapons, if that means that I have less of a headache during raids, because it is easier
This is my pov anyway, whatever the staff decides, it's going to have major consequences on raiding. Perhaps HR will become the only guild on the server that kills LK25hc, wouldn't that be a fortunate luck?

edit: and the number overgeared people who would end up leaving the server because lk25hc is too easy compared to the number of new people who don't have the patience, to even get remotely geared for heroic mode because it will be too dificult, is very low (if any of them will leave ofc)

Regardless, this is a big decision to take and it must be thought through carefully
Last edited by Blacklustersoldier on 14 Nov 2014 13:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lowering/Removing the ICC Buff

#4 » Post by Kindzadza » 14 Nov 2014 13:38

But why would someone with low gear would leave if they didn't get a spot in 25 HC raid? They should first start with ICC 10/25 normal for a couple of weeks before moving to the heroic modes.. The gearing process will be slower, but that's blizzlike after all. Not to mention the fact that ICC normal and heroic should share ID so the buff makes the gearing double faster than it should be.

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Re: Lowering/Removing the ICC Buff

#5 » Post by Corba » 14 Nov 2014 13:47

I think lowering debuff from 20% to 10% will be good start, also sharing ID with 10n and 10hc would be also good change so new 80s should not be able to farm icc 10n and 10hc and gearing so fast. Same with 25 man raid. New 80s can get 5.8k+ gs with 4 icc runs in 1 week.
Also open RS 25hc cuz most of ppl don't want to do RS 25n cuz there is no BiS gear for most classes there.
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Re: Lowering/Removing the ICC Buff

#6 » Post by Blacklustersoldier » 14 Nov 2014 13:52

because people don't have the patience to actually go through the gearing process, and idk how things are on horde side in 25hc runs, but my guild is struggling with only run that kills LK, due to certain factors like spirits exploding on raid when we get sucked inside FM, or wicked spirits inside FM sitting on therenas and wiping the raid in the second we go inside.

If you wish to lower the buff, then fix these bugs first, because heroic mode is hard as it is due to these bullshit bugs.
I would like to know if anyone managed to kill LK 25hc with 15% buff or 10% buff or 30% buff in the past when their gear wasn't BiS. So ofc after 2 years of farming icc25hc, and getting your full gear, you would want to have the buff removed so that you could have a challenge.
Also, fix this ID thing aswell, and we will have a real challenge with icc.
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Re: Lowering/Removing the ICC Buff

#7 » Post by Ragnorak » 14 Nov 2014 13:58

Blacklustersoldier wrote: - only the most elitist people will be able to clear the heroic mode due to them being elitist and bis, and whatever
This is how ICC Heroic is supposed to be... it's not supposed to be a farm fest like it is right now. Because of this current farm fest we now have severe gear inflation causing the average GS to be at around 6k and having tons of 6k gsers doing less DPS than their gs... people are basically not learning how to actually play their class and the game because they're getting carried.
Blacklustersoldier wrote:- majority of the population who won't be able to do that, may end up leaving because nobody will invite them into to raids anymore due to their lack of gear and skill, and let's be honest there are a ton of people who lack skill. I personally would like to see retards wielding 25hc weapons, if that means that I have less of a headache during raids, because it is easier
Why do people assume that the majority of the population will leave because people finally realize that they weren't as good as they thought they were. No one wants to invite people who doesn't know their class or how ICC works, that's true even with the current 20% buff. The guilds that are currently downing LK25HC (Divinity, Inquisition, Hellraisers, and now WarZone Warriors) won't be as effected by this change true, but that's because a lot of the players in those guilds know what they're doing. ICC is not supposed to be a raid that gets farmed by your average player. Yes everyone wants the gear from ICC but they have to show at least some level of competence to get it. The ICC buff effects dps/hp/hps, it has nothing to do with tactic followthrough. The ICC buff makes it so that some tactics can be ignored but the reason why PUGs fail in raids is mainly because their tactic followthrough is terrible and this is because most of the times they can ignore some of the tactics because of the buff. The removal of the buff forces them to have to learn the tactics. ICC can be cleared with an average gs of 4.8k with no ICC buffs, if tactics are followed, having 10k+ DPS is not even needed to clear ICC, it just makes it easier though. I find it much more likely and logical that people will instead of leaving the server because they realized they aren't as good as they think they are, will try to figure out what they are doing wrong. This is after all a x1 server so most people have dedicated a good amount of time into their characters to get them to the point where they currently are, why would they suddenly just give up on it all of a sudden... people will push themselves to be better at both their class and ICC if raiding end game content is what they truly want
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Re: Lowering/Removing the ICC Buff

#8 » Post by kermo14k » 14 Nov 2014 14:17

Okay here is my oppinion.

Currently ICC is the only raid, people get some rhc gear and already they want to be carried in ICC10n/25n etc... My suggestion is screw with the buff. Remove it or modify it, people will still farm iCC till they are dead.

Make raids similar to the RHC system, you need some certain iLvL to get a pass to enter it via RDF(Yes, i know it's not blizzlike, but we passed blizzlike/blizzclone a long time ago)
Make entering a raid only accesible, if you have some certain average iLvL. This could revive other raids aswell, not just being brainless ICC zombies.

Idea came from gearing my mage, while farming my ass off in rhcs, struggling to get some emblems to buy gear.
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Re: Lowering/Removing the ICC Buff

#9 » Post by MerelyASetback » 14 Nov 2014 14:17

Removing the ICC buff right now, would only benefit the already geared people. And these are the only people who seem to be in favour of this suggestion right now.
It is totally unfair to new people or lower-geared people who only sporadically get into a heroic pug.

If the staff really wants to do this, the only way of making it even reasonably fair, would be to remove all heroic gear. Not replacing it with lower tier stuff, just delete it from everyone. And also remove all Kingslayer achievements. And fix id's.
Then you might have a valid point of removing the buff.

If some people want to bring back the 'hardcore' part of WoW, let them work for it, like everyone should have done without the buff. If they're not willing to sacrifice their current 'carrying' gear for it, there's no point in removing the buff at all.


If you really want to get back the fun of guild competition and elitism or put back the 'hardcore' in this server:
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Redesign emblem drops so even at later tiers, there would be some sort of progression (GC had this for a small time, when only first few wings of ulduar were opened, be it on a smaller scale)[/hide]

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Re: Lowering/Removing the ICC Buff

#10 » Post by Ragnorak » 14 Nov 2014 14:21

Tbh I have wanted a server reset with gears and all that stuff and start fresh again but the issue is that not everyone sees it that way... You guys think removing/lowering ICC buff is going to harm the server population? Wait till u try to reset everyone's gear.
Lok'tar ogar! Victory or death - it is these words that bind me to the Horde. For they are the most sacred and fundamental of truths to any warrior of the Horde.

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From this moment until the end of days I live and die - FOR THE HORDE!

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Re: Lowering/Removing the ICC Buff

#11 » Post by Ragnorak » 14 Nov 2014 14:25

And also just an addon to the fact that this will only benefit geared people and how it's unfair how we had the ICC buff to get us our gear... We may have had the ICC buff but the gearing process was far worse on us than it has been for any of the new 80s... 80s these days get into ICCs within days of dinging 80. Back when everyone had low gear people spent months gearing up for ICC before they even entered... Even though people with the same gear level as we had back then won't have the ICC buff, they still have a server that is severely gear inflated which makes ICC easier already.

I have several other 80s that I was able to gear within weeks of dinging 80 and the truth is i don't feel as connected to those 80s as i do with the one that I actually took the time to go through the whole gearing process with. I barely play my other 80s because they got geared way too fast and it got boring even faster since there was no effort put into those characters at all
Lok'tar ogar! Victory or death - it is these words that bind me to the Horde. For they are the most sacred and fundamental of truths to any warrior of the Horde.

I give my flesh and blood freely to the Warchief. I am the instrument of my Warchief's desire. I am a weapon of my Warchief's command.

From this moment until the end of days I live and die - FOR THE HORDE!

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Re: Lowering/Removing the ICC Buff

#12 » Post by belendor » 14 Nov 2014 14:34

I agree on lowering/removing the icc buff for following reasons.

*I lvled alot of toons, i still do and i still enjoy it. The most fun part is gearing it slowly. Where is the fun in gearing a toon in 1-2 weeks to 6,2K gs?

*The LK25hc farming gets a bit boring imo. Lowering the debuff would help alot to give people a new challenge.

*I know no matter what I say will bring up the counter argument 'you are an elitest jerk, why don't u think about us new/ungeared people?'
Well don't remove buff for normal diff, so everyone can enjoy full icc.

Now about 'people with shit gear won't be able to down hc content'. I have 2 things to say about this:
1.Back in the olden days we had shit gears and we didnt do hc content either. We had a progression over weeks-months-years.
2.Even with shitgears u can still down hc content, i downed LK10hc on my alliance toon when i was 5,2K. No i didn't get carried.(ofc we had 2 6K gs people, but rest was 5,8 or lower). You just need a good group with people who are willing to wipe for a while and try to improve.
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Re: Lowering/Removing the ICC Buff

#13 » Post by Ragnorak » 14 Nov 2014 14:39

Tbh im fine with keeping the ICC buff at 20% for normal difficulties, but I honestly do believe that for HC difficulties the buff should be either lowered to 10% or removed. This coupled with hopefully a fix on the raid locks preventing people from doing ICCN and HC in the same week should be the best compromise for both high geared and low geared players
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I give my flesh and blood freely to the Warchief. I am the instrument of my Warchief's desire. I am a weapon of my Warchief's command.

From this moment until the end of days I live and die - FOR THE HORDE!

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Re: Lowering/Removing the ICC Buff

#14 » Post by Roel » 14 Nov 2014 14:49

I agree on removing the buff for all modes as the best option for server longevity.

- Due to gear inflation and bug fixes it's now easier to do heroic with 20% buff than doing normal at 30% 2 years ago.
- Old and full geared players are actually at a disadvantage because they probably had to work harder for their gear than what the new players need to do.
- Keeping the challenge is important
- Normal mode is supposed to be accessible for casuals and heroic for elitists, you're not missing out on content if you can clear normal mode.
- It could increase the activity for other raids
- Actually I already wanted this since RS was opened.

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Re: Lowering/Removing the ICC Buff

#15 » Post by Ragnorak » 14 Nov 2014 14:53

Imo it may be better to slowly phase us into removing the buff. Years ago when we removed the buff from 30% to 0% there was a huge difference noticed in the raids and thats where a lot of complaints came from. But when we raised it back up to 20% the difference was almost unnoticeable, we can probably do what we did back then and maybe instead of going straight from 20% to 0% we gradually reduce it over a certain time period so people get used to it without even realizing it
Lok'tar ogar! Victory or death - it is these words that bind me to the Horde. For they are the most sacred and fundamental of truths to any warrior of the Horde.

I give my flesh and blood freely to the Warchief. I am the instrument of my Warchief's desire. I am a weapon of my Warchief's command.

From this moment until the end of days I live and die - FOR THE HORDE!

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