I was speaking with Myaoming concerning honor points and pre-80 PvP and in this post (http://www.truewow.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 63#p106163) Myaoming pointed out to me that the Brutal Gladiator Sets from TBC still requires arena ratings which are impossible to achieve at any point where the sets would be useful (in the 70s). This was a bit bizarre because it is usually Blizzard policy to remove special requirements from PvP gears with each expansion (the ranking requirements for the 60 set was removed from Vanilla->TBC and the arena costs removed from all sets from WotLK->Cataclysm).
Now, I've had a rather in-depth discussion with Myaoming about the viability of pre-WotLK gearsets in PvP throughout the levels. Myaoming agreed (I think) to the notion that old PvP sets do have potential benefits in sub-80 PvP. This discussion also detailed that if you're doing BGs at the expected Blizzlike pace throughout your career then you'll be able to afford most any PvP gear that you want. Myaoming said that some non-Blizzlike changes are good if it encouraged more active-PvP on the server throughout other levels. Included below are some spoilers with quotes from some of our topic (and I'd be happy if Myaoming chimed in over here, because I enjoy talking with him/her).
Spoiler:
Ashiel wrote:Meanwhile the addition of honor points only encourages you to spend them. This includes spending them on PvP sets, tabards, mounts, etc. I've compared the tier 60 and tier 70 sets to equipment that you can find for those levels through PvE means, and they are still better suited for PvP (they have statistics that are geared for PvP specifically including pushing things like stamina, hit rating, mana regeneration, and possess set bonuses that keep them relevant.
Here is the level 60 PvP gear + belt obtained from Outlands, and another set of equipment found from Outlands which requires around the same level. The two are quite comparable, primarily due to the set bonuses, and I'd dare say the PvP set is generally better for PvP. You could also do a bit of mixing and matching if you didn't mind the loss of 20 Strength from the set bonus, as you can still get the +20 Stamina and Disarm reduction with 3 pieces of the set, so you have some wiggle room to mix and match as you find upgrades or gems you want to socket (you could swap the shoulders or pants if you wanted to get another 5 sockets into your set while still having the disarming buff).
Ashiel wrote:Resilience isn't as needed early on. Resilience is very nice for not getting blown to bits at higher levels, but it's not critical for PvP at lower levels. At lower levels you can get by with just stamina and other defenses. And of course the gear gets replaced as you level past it. That's expected. However, for PvP purposes you are better suited to using PvP gear from 70+ with a mixture of Nothrend Gear until you can hit the 78+ point where you can begin acquiring PvP gears through Blacksmithing.
This comparison shows someone geared for PvP in Required-70 PvP gear with items from Northrend included versus a set of items only from Northrend (consisting of level-appropriate dungeon drops and/or crafted materials). It quickly highlights the emphasis on PvE from items not obtained through PvP vendors for honor points. The PvP set is comparable in general strengths but possesses much more resilience and critical strike rating and possesses more gemslots, though is pretty comparable otherwise with gear that is obtainable pre-78.
I feel this demonstrates that there is still a place for the pre-80 PvP sets and that it should be reasonable to obtain them as it has virtually no impact on end-game content but can greatly spice up pre-80 content and encourage people to do more PvP and gear up over the course of their PvP careers rather than skipping PvP content as they go. The fact that many of these gears look sexy is merely a bonus.
Myaoming wrote:We're not only trying to be a Blizzlike server, but we're also trying to a PvP server. With this Exp rate, we're making a better PvP server, unblizzlikely. With a boosted Exp rate, it won't improve the PvP side, it will just make it more unblizzlike. With normal rates, we will have less PvP, more blizzlikeness. Again, we prefer keeping things as they are for now.
Myaoming noted that the level 70 PvP gears still require arena ratings to purchase. Since WotLK doesn't have Transmogrification (though some WotLK servers are enabling that) these sets don't really get to do anything, though they still have much to offer those who PvP regularly and reward them with cool gear for PvPing. Because of this I would propose that the Brutal Gladiator vendors be modified to charge Honor Points instead of Arena Points and no longer require an Arena Rating to purchase. This way pre-80 people can purchase them with honor points they have earned through diligent participation in BGs.
I'd estimate the value of each piece is roughly its arena point cost x20. That would place the cost of these gears from their vendors at:
Chest 37,500 Honor Head 37,500 Honor Hands 22,500 Honor Legs 37,500 Honor Shoulders 30,000 Honor Total 165,000 Honor
You wouldn't if you're level 80, unless you are a collector of some sort. But if you're staying in the 70-79 bracket for a while you''d want it. At least i'd do.
"With life, no matter what you do, you are all in. This is going to kill you. Might as well play the most magnificent game you can while you're waiting, because... Do you have anything better to do? Really?"
Bluebell wrote:Why would I buy 5 pieces of level 70 gear when I could buy 2 pieces of level 80?
Well Bluebell, that's actually the point. If you're level 80 (where you can gain Arena Rating) then the ability to purchase these is entirely pointless. To get use out of them you need to be in a lower bracket. Now I explained over in another thread that if you're leveling in BGs at a Blizzlike pace you should acquire a truckload of honor over your career. I've spoilered a breakdown of the expected honor gains on a Blizzlike from another thread which sums up the gist of it.
Spoiler:
Ashiel wrote:Which is enough. For the quantity of PvP it would require for you to level at the rate that is being leveled you could purchase most anything you wanted for any level bracket. For example, if I was playing BGs frequently enough to gain a level in the 30s range, I would amass a huge amount of honor over the course of my play.
Breaking it Down
For our example I'll assume that we never win, as a sort of minimum qualifier. Going from memory, matches that our team lost during rewarded roughly 200 honor. Matches we won awarded around 800, so I'll use 800 as a high end for my example.
Now if on a x1 rate it would take about 20 BGs for me to gain 1 level, I would amass between 4,000-16,000 honor points over the course of that level. Which means that you'll probably gravitate around 10,000 honor points average over the course of a level (assuming more or less equal wins vs losses). At this rate of honor you should be able to comfortably gear up as desired while leveling and virtually no piece of PvP gear is beyond you for playing in BGs frequently.
Now if we speed up the rates to merely x5, then you will gain 1 level every 4 BGs, while only earning between 800-3200 honor, or an average of about 2,000 honor points per level. So the effective honor gain vs level advancement is being dropped to about a fifth of what it was (this is a virtual decrease in honor due to less matches being played per level). This is not a great problem at low levels where honor gear is both mild and cheap, but it rears its head as levels progress (as do most rate adjustments).
If someone leveled from even 35-39 in BGs at x1, you would amass somewhere around 40,000 honor points. At x5 the normal rate you are only going to amass about 8,000 honor points. An imbalance in the expected XP to Honor ratio is occurring and it's being made more difficult to acquire gear as you progress.
Honor points are capped at 75,000 honor at one time. If you are playing in Blizzlike rates, you should be acquiring an absolutely huge amount of honor if you play a few levels worth of BGs in a given bracket. Currently the Level-to-Honor ratio is busted (but that's what the other thread is about) but the concept remains pretty constant. If you are frequently doing BGs throughout your career at Blizzlike rates then you are going to be able to afford lower-level gears and encouraged to purchase lower level gears by circumstance (you could amass enough to easily buy all the 80 PvP gear that doesn't require arena ratings long before hitting 80 on a x1 Blizzlike, but you would be better served in your career by purchasing lower level gears around the appropriate levels).
Naturally nobody at 80 with an arena rating would want to purchase these, but it's impossible for those who would want them to purchase them. It's traditionally in keeping with Blizzard policy to remove special requirements from old top-tier sets during each new expansion (and infact they did remove the arena requirements for these and WotLK sets in Cataclysm as well).
I'm positing this as means of encouraging and rewarding those who make PvP an emphasis of their play experiences, improving the lower-levels of the game, while having 0% impact on the end-game content or balance of the game. Or in simpler terms, it is a win/win.
On a Side Note
The honor points were assessed by comparison of PvP vendors and items, and priced as such with a multiplier that retains their differences. While currently it would be difficult to acquire these in a timely manner due to the broken XP vs Honor rates in BGs, I priced them based on what the rates are supposed to be rather than what they are. I've already been discussing methods of fixing the imbalance between XP/Honor in the other thread, and I didn't feel it was necessary to rehash each here.
It would be nice, not sure if anyone would do it though.
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Bluebell wrote:Wouldn't it just get replaced by the profession level 78 gear?
It can be, but there's quite a few levels between the point that you can obtain the 70 PvP gear and the point that you can wear the level 78 PvP gear. In actuality the 70 PvP gear is useful longer than the 78 PvP gear because the 78 PvP gear is destined to be replaced with 80 gear (which you may have pre-80 if all things are working correctly).
So there's that. There's also the fact that the crafted gear doesn't give any class or pvp bonuses beyond the resilience. For example, the Brutal Gladiator's Battlegear 4 piece set bonus reduces the cooldown of Intercept by 5 seconds, and the BGB Gauntlets reduce the cost of Hamstring by 3. These sets can be mixed as well (you can wear 4 pieces of the brutal gladiator set and 4 pieces of the level 78 set to get the PvP skill bonuses at the loss of a bit of Stamina and Resilience (but you gain 7 sockets which can be specced with some PvP vendor gems or something).
There's also the fact it's kinda stupid the way it is now. There is no way to obtain these pieces without being level 80 and then they are truly useless. Removing the arena point cost / rating requirement and just making them cost Honor allows players to purchase them and use them for PvP. That alone should probably be enough of a reason to have them at all.
There are people who are using the field marshal set pieces right now and doing very well with them through the 60s-69s, and it would be nice to have the same options for the 70s-79s as well. This isn't an adjustment that would unbalance anything in the least, can't mess with arena seasons, etc. Just give more options to spend honor points on and thus encourage more active sub-80 PvP.
Hey i really like this idea. cause i have had the field marshal set since 60 an just now replaced my chest at 69. i have also been gearing with pvp gear since level 19. And would like to be able to gear up some more be for 80. its really good gear and i would like to get it when i hit 70. And you may not replace it at 78 cause of the class set bonuses of the gear. I really hope this gets pasted and thanks for reading.
It's July and still bumping this thread. This suggestion has had pretty much nothing but positive response beyond a single question of "why bother?" that was answered. Last I checked it should be a matter of just altering the cost of the item in the server database; or since it uses a special currency adjusting the vendor ID to the currency ID and set the amount needed.
Alternatively, you could try to get more people to participate in both PvE and PvP by making them cost badges you collect through the RDF each day at 69+ (I believe it was triumph badges, or perhaps the BC badges that you get for BC heroics). Maybe make them cost 3-5 badges each (if the WotLK badges) or 10 badges each (for BC heroic badges). Not sure, I'd need to do some research to see how competitive the gear would be with other options for those levels and their longevity.
