fight duration in pvp

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papastrumff
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fight duration in pvp

#1 » Post by papastrumff » 09 Sep 2017 13:52

I suggest lowering the mana cost of all skills in game in bgs and arenas by 20% because of the 20% dmg nerf which cripples casters mana.
In other words for the same amount of mana, one does 20% less damage right now which leads to, casters going oom while opponent not taking the pressure it was supposed to. Another way to look at it is the fights last 20% longer so there has to be something to keep casters going as well.

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Re: fight duration in pvp

#2 » Post by loveable » 09 Sep 2017 16:08

-1
already dudu is hard to kill , in this way dudu will be op more than warrior
warrior rend does to much dmg on cloth + leather classe's , but still cant kill dudu easily , but if you lower mana cost , dudu will never oom or it will oom after mana regen is ready again
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papastrumff
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Re: fight duration in pvp

#3 » Post by papastrumff » 10 Sep 2017 11:58

Well on primal dudu as you say cant kill a warrior before he goes oom, he can just survive but to do dmg as well not really. That is from looking 2 more or less highest pvp geared characters on server fighting.

Also from 2v2 perspective, your teammate holy paladin and his mana pool will last 20 % longer as well. That is really a minor problem that druid will have more mana because all casters will so it is the same for everyone.

The major problem is that classes that use mana go oom against classes that does not without killing them because of that 20% dmg reduction. Looking overall, it is only logical to give everyone something to fight with, for casters basically fights got 20% longer while their pool stayed the same and that is not fair.

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Re: fight duration in pvp

#4 » Post by Anesthesia » 10 Sep 2017 12:31

+1, It makes sense.
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Re: fight duration in pvp

#5 » Post by loveable » 10 Sep 2017 22:09

i agree but still its not solution to reduc mana
for now warrior is very very op cuz dmg reduced but still warrior does to much dmg and high deff so kinda its not killable by any class , even warrior can kill 2 in 3v1 fight before he/she die (like dmg is 100% on warriors)
like this druid will be super op like warrior

i would say best solution is to incr dmg 10 or 15% , only 5 or 10% reduc at all , t5 will release soon so everything will be fine too
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Re: fight duration in pvp

#6 » Post by papastrumff » 12 Sep 2017 17:30

Reducing damage by 20% was implemented to lower burst in pvp becuase of high damage output with wotlk talents and is needed on top of resilience from what I can see. Reducing mana cost by 20% is just making it fair for everyone.

If you feel resto druid is OP in some way, you can make another suggestion but in my opinion, resto is nothing special, maybe is from warriors perspective but still it is not the reason to nerf them.

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Re: fight duration in pvp

#7 » Post by papastrumff » 17 Sep 2017 17:35

One more thing I wanted to add to conversation.

Resilience cap for TBC was at 490 which reduced damage from crits by 25%, you could have gone beyond that to reduce crit strike chance and would not affect damage on crits anymore.
In WOTLK that cap was increased to 33% on crits due to more dmg, so on primaltTBC we can get up to 33% crit dmg reduction and to get that you need 680 resilience (everything tested on PTR). You can easily check that if you go beyond that, 33% reduciton on crits stays the same.

Now, I have a character fully in brutal gear with pvp weapons, all yellow sockets with 8 resi gems, medallion (45 resi) and talisman of the horde (34 resi) and that makes it to 540 resilience and casting lesser healing wave gives me 40 more.
So at the end I can end up with around 30% dmg reduction from crits and big % of overall dmg on top of 20% flat dmg reduction.

What is going to happen is that none of the caster classes is ever going to kill a heavily resilience stacked meele class due to going oom. Not only that we need 20% mana cost reduction to overcome 20% flat dmg reduciton which made fightts more or less 20% time longer but we also might need to reduce mana costs even further because of the availability to go much further than 25% crit dmg reduction but that is another discussion for when we will have acess to brutal gear. By then, we should know the balance of things in PvP.

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Re: fight duration in pvp

#8 » Post by fatass11 » 17 Sep 2017 20:43

+1

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Re: fight duration in pvp

#9 » Post by papastrumff » 24 Sep 2017 22:49

bump

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Re: fight duration in pvp

#10 » Post by Bradonja » 19 Oct 2017 12:35

Agreed. Speaking from priest and mage perspective, you're oom after 1 min of action (using an ability every gcd and/or casting constantly - and I'm talking about regular abilities, not spriest DP spam). Mana regen cooldowns such as shadowfiend and evocation are not very reliable and easily countered in most cases.

It's true that druid has the least mana problems of all the casters from what I can tell, but resto druid is in fact very weak in the current meta where everyone is getting bursted down in a few seconds even with 200+ resilience, as hots don't do much in these situations. To even stand a chance of keeping someone alive vs. more than 1 player the druid has to have prehots rolling on his target(s) (and ideally himself too or he's dead if they switch to him), which drains your mana incredibly fast. I've seen resto druids having to use innervate before the fight even started, just to maintain the prehots in anticipation of the fight.

20% mana cost reduction across the board in pvp seems reasonable to me. As papastrumff pointed out it will bring the classes closer in terms of balance - warriors, ret paladins and rogues dominate atm and they don't have to worry about mana (ret pallies only go oom if they stop attacking and heal). Casters will still oom fast, it won't even be close to how it was at lvl60, where they could literally be casting constantly and never go oom (yet for some reason no1 complained). I'd say reduce the dmg by another 20% too, but that's another discussion ;P

P.S.: We still don't have arena water

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Re: fight duration in pvp

#11 » Post by Dunkelstein » 20 Oct 2017 04:22

With the 20% damage nerf reapplied and players running around in 300 resilience, the only thing holding hybrid classes back atm is their mana. Spriests are very close to their state in vanilla when nobody could outdamage their barriers and selfheals (except when oom), warlocks (in the selfheal spec) are probably the same but I haven't seen one in wsg yet.
As a Hunter I can no longer burst enemies down and simply succumb to 2 dots without any of their casts going off on me.

I foresee the strongest classes in the meta atm (dmg nerf+resil but no mana reduce) to be retribution paladins and feral/hybrid balance druids.
They have excellent defensives, offensives, CC and probably more mana upkeep than priests atm.

Classes that cannot selfheal just seem really screwed, but with healing being more viable maybe we will see more pure healers in pvp. Until then dot classes will just dominate once again, unless you have the power to burst them down and eat food undisturbed before dying yourself.

Excited to see how this turns out, I'd say hold off with mana changes until everyone has tried it the way it is now!
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Re: fight duration in pvp

#12 » Post by papastrumff » 20 Oct 2017 16:46

The mana change will not affect the damage on dots, it has nothing to do with those classes. Dots will be nerfed when you get to proper resilience cap. 300 resilience in TBC is something like 700 in wotlk and if you played wotlk you would know it is not enough to do pvp.
Mana change is only logical and necesarry, it does not change anyones burst, just longevity in longer fights. And the fights are longer indeed with 20% dmg nerf

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Re: fight duration in pvp

#13 » Post by Dunkelstein » 20 Oct 2017 20:49

Never said it would affect the damage on dots. Mana restrictions are limiting their actions, they can't just run around and dot/shield everyone all the time. Since resilience is where it is right now, I don't think that's a bad thing inherently.

I couldn't get a good look at rogues and warriors after the changes yet though, missed most of the EotS so far (trying to get ppl kara attuned). Take what I said as nothing more than an educated guess, you are obviously more experienced with mana classes than I am ^_^
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Re: fight duration in pvp

#14 » Post by papastrumff » 20 Oct 2017 23:05

Yeah but as I understand the dmg nerf is now 40% which will make food heal ratio to dots dmg much greater and you wont die from it so thats solved. Gameplay is much nicer as well.
Now only thing left is 40% mana cost reduce asap and shield nerf if possible because shields are now gonna be op with same dmg apsorption while damage output is nerfed

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Re: fight duration in pvp

#15 » Post by Dunkelstein » 21 Oct 2017 22:40

^True, but overall dot classes are still benefitting from damage nerf while in combat.

Shield nerf is a good point. Imo we need to do more testing before changing more, though.
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