[Accepted] Increasing Icecrown Citadel's Buff to 25%

[mcheka]

Back to 20 or push it to 30, no real reason to leave it at 25.

[alexiepower]

Didnt Hellraisers almost did it few times? At least Arnis said they almost got to p3 or so. I call that a visible progress so why revert it back? Unless they wanna revert it which I doubt...
This inconsistency of decision is whats bad. These are not really reversible changes, because people adapt to it. It might just create some frustration...

But I wont care enough to give it a +1 or -1. Just do whatever you want, you're the boss, kinda.

[Gnurg]

Seeing there wasn't a whole lot of progress after the buff has been implemented, perhaps we should consider lowering it to the previous value. Feedback from others who haven't posted yet is welcome

Keep it or they won't invite my shaman for ICC.

[arnis5]

Seeing there wasn't a whole lot of progress after the buff has been implemented, perhaps we should consider lowering it to the previous value. Feedback from others who haven't posted yet is welcome

As a non raider u have no rights to tell there was no progress since u are not joining raids, so your conclusion as non raider shouldnt count at all.
There is a huge progress atleast in Hellriaser raids.

[Eronox]

Seeing there wasn't a whole lot of progress after the buff has been implemented, perhaps we should consider lowering it to the previous value. Feedback from others who haven't posted yet is welcome

There is a huge progress atleast in Hellriaser raids.

Same in RoTS

[Nyeriah]

Seeing there wasn't a whole lot of progress after the buff has been implemented, perhaps we should consider lowering it to the previous value. Feedback from others who haven't posted yet is welcome

As a non raider u have no rights to tell there was no progress since u are not joining raids, so your conclusion as non raider shouldnt count at all.
There is a huge progress atleast in Hellriaser raids.

Guess my opinion as a "non raider" only counts when it's favorable to you, but I'll still be entitled to my opinion even if it's formulated due to lack of feedback regardless of your permission, Arnis.

Thanks for your feedback, Eronox

[arnis5]

Guess my opinion as a "non raider" only counts when it's favorable to you, but I'll still be entitled to my opinion even if it's formulated due to lack of feedback regardless of your permission, Arnis.

You was favorable to me? o_O interesting, well yeah your opinion doesn't count at all since u don't join raids so u don't know how diferent is to do icc with 25% buff.

[alexiepower]

I hate it but i have to agree with Arnis here...
He did say HR was progressing through it. If you want to remove the buff or not that's up to you, but you can't say you lack feedback, and if you're not raiding you can't say people aren't progressing.
* Inquisition had progress, we were able to kill LK a lot more and in less amount of time like it was said before. We dont enjoy having the buff but the difference is small for us so it wont matter as much.
*Hellraisers had progress on getting to phase 2-3. And if they are still trying i think it would be incorrect of you to reduce the buff.

You were expecting more people to answer here? Who? There are two big guilds actively killing/trying LK 25 hc. You had 100% feedback on it. As for 10 man runs, the rare ones to reach and kill LK with 25% buff would probably do it just as good with 20%... So probably no progress there to be noticed.

I like the fact that you gave your opinion and that you're transparent on this topic. But i don't think you're right this time...

[Eronox]

Thanks for your feedback, Eronox

RoTS had issues dealing with 25hc, but with the buff increasement the progression went from 7/12 to 9/12. The 25n runs become much smoother than they Already were since, in my opinion, it's a childs play.


10man raids is about the same since the scaling has another value there, but Bane in 10hc has with this buff increasement been attempted much more than before.

So, was the change a positive call? Indeed it was.

[Nyeriah]

...

I have said through this suggestion that this change could be taken as a temporary experiment and that we could be reviewing it at a later time to be decided whether to maintain it or revert it to the previous value.

About the two guilds you mentioned, Inquisition had no real "progress" as it was just progress made easier, they were doing this without it and now they're still doing it but with more ease. Hellraisers got to the Lich King with 20% buff a week before the buff was implemented, but I don't remember how far went the progress.

It's also debatable if Hellraisers got to this progress due to the increased buff or the fact Divinity has joined forces with them and now they got more players to choose from. I reckon before the Divinity "merge", after the buff, they could still not get to the Lich King.

I hope you understand that these discussions right now compose of the needed break point to decided what happens from now, as to whether maintain the buff or revert it to what it was and finally be done with this suggestion.

Personally, I am glad to hear that this change has benefited other guilds too, outside of the bipolar scenario there currently is. Because pretty much that's what it was aimed at, not only benefiting the two top guilds but giving the incentive to others to progress as well.

Ipsis litteris, I never said it was going to be removed, what I did say was that without more feedback and discussion it's probably something we should be considering if it didn't change anything at all, further than the what people would probably already manage before.

I am however quite decided that this should probably stay as it is from what I've heard of the discussions since yesterday, so unless something shows up, I'll be locking this thread in 3 days and consider this a cold case.

[iceshock]

Well the damage of the buff increase has already been done, the top players we had in our first 10 kills at 20%, only a hand full of them people are active now over 22 kills since 25%, most of them 20% players have gone inactive now since things became easier and they saw it could be done with carrying players or even pugging it now that it's easier.

I vote and this might sound crazy but stick it on 10%, give the server something to work towards on a even playing field where nobody has done it before. It may even bring some top raiders back active again for the cause simply because it will be a challenge. It will be something new to do.

Lich king may not die for months, but it will make players better over time of learning it and by the time Lich king is dead, because of there new found talent killing bosses without such a big nerf, halion will become a walk in the park for players of both factions.


But other than that, I don't care too much any more as the damage has been done already, the only thing that would be interesting is some percentage completely new. So for me now I'll just roll with 20 or 25 if that's what is decided but would prefer something completely new.

[milanlord]

How about you leave 25% till the end of month and then since many people have different view of which buff should he choose, change it on monthly or 2 month's basis or even higher line.
Like first 4 months start with 10%, next 4 months 20% and last 4 months 30%. It would be something like Primal currently has with some other raids, a progression in icc
Though there is always a risk that people maybe won't raid icc in first parts of year(due to waiting for 30%) but this could satisfy everyone, since some people will get challenge trying with 10%, some people will get boost with 20%, and at the end even the ones with less skill will get a chance to kill LK with 30% buff

Atm, for HR(saying from my experience from last night) dps isn't that much big of a problem, more of is where to place defile, last attempt was decent and we almost passed the last Valk wave.

[mcheka]

Inquisition had no real "progress" as it was just progress made easier, they were doing this without it and now they're still doing it but with more ease.

I can tell you that if the buff is reverted, Inquisition will go from killing LK 1-2 times per week to killing 0-1. Now, I actually don't consider getting an extra alt run kill as progress (unlike some people), but some do see it that way.

Bangarang's idea of reducing it to something like 10% doesn't sound as ludicrous anymore now that Hellraisers has been strongly reinforced with skilled, experienced, and geared players from Divinity. It would probably put the two guilds on a nearly equal footing for the first "10% buff" kill and the race would be close.

However, this would only be tailored to those two particular guilds and hurt guilds such as Raiders of the Storm, who have clearly benefited from the buff increase.

[Eronox]

However, this would only be tailored to those two particular guilds and hurt guilds such as Raiders of the Storm, who have clearly benefited from the buff increase.

Small guilds as Backseat Raiders, Guardians of Valyndor, bloodcrazed and Fist of the Horde as well. (H)

[Blackwyrm]

Interesting fact. Since the buff increase to 25%, the server activity (pugwise) seems to have decreased by a great deal.

Honestly, I don't know what to think of it. Is it that more players are running ICC/RS with guild now that ICC has gotten easier, decreased population? One of the facts is, that with less pugs going around, there seems to be a tendency where lesser raids (such as ToC, Ulduar and Naxx) happen with a lesser frequency.

This is my point of view from Horde side. I have no inside as for Alliance.