Wew vs Keo x Submerge aka Flooded.

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Deim
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Wew vs Keo x Submerge aka Flooded.

#1 » Post by Deim » 04 Jul 2017 00:51

We didn't get any kind of reasonable response for 24 hours and as time is running out I decided I'm gonna bring it here.

Facts:
Keo gave out his account info to various people. It was known by Wew for quite a long time. He did log his account vendor gear and took mats. Thats a theft true. But according to rule no 3. Owner is resonsible for his account and in case of something missing when you share your account info with other people, staff is not supposed to interfere if account wasn't hacked.

Conclusion:
Hence banning Wew, who ofc should be shunned for what he did, shouldn't be punished by staff in any way for this specific thing. Yes it's not perma ban, however there shouldn't be any ban in first place. Neither should be Keo's gear restored, as account wasn't hacked but that's not the main point. It's plain example of GMs favourism.

Rant:
FANTASTIC way to go! You don't like some1? Lets find reason to ban! Or maybe, you like someone? Let's ban someone who did sth bad to your friend and also help a friend in the way you shouldn't... That's not the TrueWoW community I've been experiencing past few years.
Reaction of other staff members who don't want to be involved with it (as we tried to communicate with few) is also not a thing you would love to hear when your geared member for T4 release run gets randomly banned. Which I partialy can uderstand as staff members don't want to fight each other.

Offtopic:
While it's not the main topic and was brought up few times already on forums. Submerge is well known for "going nazi" and banning/muting people for the slightest sorts of things. And I see it as complately inappropriate to legitimaize this kind of actions beacuse of amounts of work he puts in development of the server (which should be more than appreciated). He might be great for organizing things but the way he deals with in game player issues is not acceptable.

Also this kind of solution:
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Where later on it was said that he would get banned back after unbaning, is fucking retarded.

If I get this closed without reasonable replies and/or my account suspended for "staff disrespect" or whatever made up reason Flooded finds reasonable this will also go outside forums, further to all kinds of wow related forums. I realy don't want to go on anyones bad side, but now it seems inevitable.

Either change rules or don't brake them the fact it's private project doesn't justify braking rules you wrote down on your (staff) own, if you do change them now I'd like to remind you that Lex retro non agit

regards,

Deim
TrueWoW - Retired
PrimalWoW - Retired
Rest in pepperoni Crimson
RIP in pepperoni Aftershock
Spokesman of Aftershock in case of any questions/complaints hit me up in game or via PM.

Disclaimer: What I write on behalf guild doesn't always corelate with my own beliefs.

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Nyeriah

Re: Wew vs Keo x Submerge aka Flooded.

#2 » Post by Nyeriah » 04 Jul 2017 01:29

We are not responsible if anything goes wrong when sharing your accounts but we have a vast history of cases where we attempted to repair the losses the player may have been through. Notwithstanding, we have also taken actions towards players who hijack accounts given we had the conviction they were guilty.

The goal is to preserve the balance of the game and along the course provide the most enjoyment to our players, so certainly if any actions can be taken towards that we goal we'll be considering them.

So from my perspective - and without diving in the merits of the cause - things have proceeded as they usually do around this case, however the flexibility of the penalty is unheard of and quite questionable.

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Deim
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Re: Wew vs Keo x Submerge aka Flooded.

#3 » Post by Deim » 04 Jul 2017 02:04

Thanks for fast reply Nye, I don't wanna nitpick, but Wew didn't steal his account but mats. While his actions were indeed vile and reparation for damage is understandable. Does it realy justify ban, considering the fact the account info was given out more than 6 months ago. Owner of account being aware that various other people were having access to this account and were playing on it during parts of vanilla phase. It's plain neglection of any rational thinking about safety. Using parable leaving your wallet on floor in public place doesnt legitimize anyone to steal it but it highly increases chances someone ultimately will do it. However common sense would suggest not share your account info with anyone. Be it warning for all others not to share their account credentials.
Also I've searched a bit through Player Reports history and saw cases where only visible reply to players was about rule number 3 and that it's their fault things went missing. I understand not everything is public. But that creates an assumption that not every player was getting things refund and not every offender got banned.
TrueWoW - Retired
PrimalWoW - Retired
Rest in pepperoni Crimson
RIP in pepperoni Aftershock
Spokesman of Aftershock in case of any questions/complaints hit me up in game or via PM.

Disclaimer: What I write on behalf guild doesn't always corelate with my own beliefs.

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Krex1992
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Re: Wew vs Keo x Submerge aka Flooded.

#4 » Post by Krex1992 » 04 Jul 2017 03:30

Interesting posts Mr Deim. I did not know you've become a such good lawyer, it most be the time you left Crimson you started to become a good detective and a lawyer.. However my friend, the penalty is dealt with and go to forum to start complain will not work my dearest friend. Also he will get unbanned for release, and then banned again. That sounds like a good treat from PW staff.
Thanks for fast reply Nye, I don't wanna nitpick, but Wew didn't steal his account but mats. While his actions were indeed vile and reparation for damage is understandable. Does it realy justify ban, considering the fact the account info was given out more than 6 months ago.
Mats worth 3k gold, vendor my tank gear who cost me 1.5k to enchant/gem, I can continue the list for what he has done for a timestamp of 1.5hour. and you still want to protect him. That dedication you do here only show that you also were part of this. So well done for exposing yourself Deim, you're truly a Truewow player who is jealous about others success. You can kiss that Realm first byebye and just watch us steamroll Magtheridon, Gruul and Karazhan.
Keo Nelf/Tauren Druid

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Fitzpatrick
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Re: Wew vs Keo x Submerge aka Flooded.

#5 » Post by Fitzpatrick » 04 Jul 2017 05:09

Deim wrote:
04 Jul 2017 00:51
While it's not the main topic and was brought up few times already on forums. Submerge is well known for "going nazi" and banning/muting people for the slightest sorts of things.
Where is this coming from? I have found the complete opposite to be true. I can think of multiple times when I thought someone should have been banned and wasn't, in interactions with Submerge. I think you may be conflating him with other GMs.
Fitzsimmons / Bibimbap / Fitzpatrick
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Anesthesia
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Re: Wew vs Keo x Submerge aka Flooded.

#6 » Post by Anesthesia » 04 Jul 2017 06:19

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=11643

3. Sharing your account with someone else is not recommended and we strongly suggest you to not give out your personal information to anyone. We cannot and will not be held responsible for your actions or any harm caused to your account(s) if your choice goes awry.

Not responsible does not mean "not supposed to interfere"
This means that the rule staff once wrote, was not broken or bent in this case
and
https://definitions.uslegal.com/l/lex-retro-non-agit/
Is certainly not a rule we have to oblige today, please keep in mind that law is there to be interpreted and changed accordingly to time and needs of people to whom it applies (not to be worshiped for thousands of years, you have religion for that <-- something that is "not" man-made). Check: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_post_facto_law

+ bending a rule in a way that it helps the subject of law is favorable, in addition to rules we have morals and customs that can and should shape our decisions.
+ Postponing or pausing of a jail sentence is common practice in real life law (we can use it in game as well).
No one can see what's in my pocket.

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Deim
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Re: Wew vs Keo x Submerge aka Flooded.

#7 » Post by Deim » 04 Jul 2017 07:19

Krex1992 wrote:
04 Jul 2017 03:30
That dedication you do here only show that you also were part of this. So well done for exposing yourself Deim, you're truly a Truewow player who is jealous about others success. You can kiss that Realm first byebye and just watch us steamroll Magtheridon, Gruul and Karazhan.
Bunch of nonsense, I wasn't aware of issue untill Kurthos started questioning me as I keep you muted due to amount of cringe you bring to world chat. So luckily your cries on world chat went unheard by me. Belive me questioning Wew and the others to make sense what and why and how happened wasn't the thing I would love to repeat any more.
But you won't deny giving your account to plenthora of people including let's say Cloudra who was playing on this account until you took back, he was gearing "your" warlock didn't he? You gave out your account left for Elysium and than came back "hijacking" accounts back.

Ugh I just woke up will edit post and respond to rest.

Anesthesia, good point on parole, I didn't think about it was a bit tired when I was writing post. Ex post facto laws are not allowed in majority of countries for good reason and many legal systems which are not based on precedence and customs but are properly codified base heavily on Lex retro non agit/lex prospicit non respicit rule. But let's not make it debate on law systems. As is it neither place nor time I guess.

Fitz, well there were some complaints about banning 8yo old kid as he was assumed to be bot and some ridiculous mutes on world chat and mutes for some discussion in guild chat if i recall.

Now being complately honest, my reason of state is well being of my guild. I don't try to defend Wew for my eternal love for him or some other nonsense. Him getting banned applies additional pressure to me and rest of officers as we need to farm and get ready some pieces of his gear so he can be at least average during raid, including speed runing his attunement (which is easier than finding substitue boomkin and gearing him up from nothing). So this whole issue hits at me more than actualy on him at the given moment. While I appreciate that Flooded decided to give us at least a chance to take on T4 without the need to change bis lists for every single dps around. Still just postponing that ban would be better idea as I understand now it's inevitable anyway.
TrueWoW - Retired
PrimalWoW - Retired
Rest in pepperoni Crimson
RIP in pepperoni Aftershock
Spokesman of Aftershock in case of any questions/complaints hit me up in game or via PM.

Disclaimer: What I write on behalf guild doesn't always corelate with my own beliefs.

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Etro
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Re: Wew vs Keo x Submerge aka Flooded.

#8 » Post by Etro » 04 Jul 2017 10:12

II think it is an issue when a rule has such a scope for interpretation and course of action. I don't believe it helps to hold legitimacy if it depends entirely on the judge, and in this case it seems the penalty was also way in this aspect. That it is so doesn't mean that it should be or vice versa.
Anesthesia wrote: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=11643

3. Sharing your account with someone else is not recommended and we strongly suggest you to not give out your personal information to anyone. We cannot and will not be held responsible for your actions or any harm caused to your account(s) if your choice goes awry.

Not responsible does not mean "not supposed to interfere"
This means that the rule staff once wrote, was not broken or bent in this case
To interfere like this means to take on the responsibility. If that rule wasn't meant to convey that, then it is pretty much saying "maybe we will do something, or not, not up to you", which would be rather absurd. If it is supposed to convey something of the like, then, damn; I think it should be cleared up asap with some PR help.
Anesthesia wrote: and
https://definitions.uslegal.com/l/lex-retro-non-agit/
Is certainly not a rule we have to oblige today, please keep in mind that law is there to be interpreted and changed accordingly to time and needs of people to whom it applies (not to be worshiped for thousands of years, you have religion for that <-- something that is "not" man-made). Check: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_post_facto_law
Would you mind elaborating on this? I don't get the direct relation with this particular subject. I had the idea that flexibility of interpretation in law is undesirable for enabling use of loopholes.

Either way, I think the bending of a rule should be discussed, before and/or after it has been bent, for if was needed to be bent, then the rule is not properly written, IMO, and if it was not needed to be bent, then there's something wrong going on with the use of power.

In my opinion, it is concerning when something like this happens, for it shows weakness in the power structure of the staff, allowing people to act and rule in absolute independence of the team agreement as long it can be rationalized by the actor, and that's not how a team is supposed to work.
"With life, no matter what you do, you are all in. This is going to kill you. Might as well play the most magnificent game you can while you're waiting, because... Do you have anything better to do? Really?"

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flosr1
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Re: Wew vs Keo x Submerge aka Flooded.

#9 » Post by flosr1 » 04 Jul 2017 11:12

i think there are happening a lot of thing atm. with staff being involved that can and should not be accepted.

what wew did here was totally wrong from a moral perspective and i will not defend him here, i find this as bad as any other reasonable person. ... but, server rules should not be changed depending on whose friend or enemy is involved.
in the past there were also made a lot of changes and tunings in favour of some guilds, i will not name now what it was because none of it can be really proven, but most people might know what i am talking about.

the entire fact, that dev's, staff and gm'S are playing and raiding in (big) guilds is so wrong and i never experienced it in this extend on other servers and there is a good reason that it is not allowed on blizzard servers. it can be abused so much, and i could name examples from my own experience where it has been abused, altho i am not going to call out names now.

i have experienced various situations while leveling or being in dungeons where things were completely bugged and not being able to finish due to bugs and i did not get GM help altho it was totally obvious. the answer was many times "use the bug tracker, discuss it in forum" yeah ofc, i can do that but i still expect help in this situations. also because i know that some people get help because of every minor thing, just because "they **** the GM's dick". All this behavior of whiteknighting staff for every single sonsense is so completely retarded and annoying.

i was removed recently from testerforum, obviously because some people did not like my thread in suggestions forum about delaying t4 content. i was told by kurthos via whisper to not write stuff like that because it leaves a bad image on the server and might stop new players to play. i can understand that concern but it is not the right way to deal with it. then i was told to discuss tunings in tester forum and use the bug tracker. i have do admit, i did not use the bug tracker until then very often and then i tried it with a few issues. funny thing is, after i did, about half of my reported bugs were denied or classified as tuning/balancing altho they were obviously bugs and i even explained why. but i have the feeling, sometimes staff simply doesn't want to deal wit things. because i also made the experience that things in that tester forum were "ignored" sometimes, maybe if people didn't realise it is an issue. anyway, i made that post because i wanted to suggest something, therefore i chose the right forum. yes i mentioned bugs and tuning issues but that was neccessary to explain my suggestion and there was no other secret reason behind it or any bad intentions. also it was important for me that every1 can read and discuss about it, not only people in a super secret forum where i already know how people will react. and the answer from some people like kurthos and fitzsimmons kinda proved that. also calling out my ingame character name was not ok, since i want to decide myself if anyone in public forum knows it or not. the reason why i wrote a kidna angry reply in the end about 4 content being totally buggy at ptr and that i doubt things will work, it being rather embrassing etc. because of the really stupid replies i got there in this thread.

anyway, i think what deim wrote might not be a bad idea. with all the negative stuff and abusing power from staff atm, maybe things like that should be brought to other sites and forums too. if that is they only thing we can do to defend ourselves against this corruption, than so be it.

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Re: Wew vs Keo x Submerge aka Flooded.

#10 » Post by Eronox » 04 Jul 2017 12:14

We are taking care of this internally,
thank you all for sharing opinions and perspective of view.

We apologize for this,
A Staff member shall make another reply to this thread featuring the conclusion of the case in due time.
.

There's things that never will be right I know, and things need changin' everywhere you go.
But 'til we start to make a move to make a few things right,
You'll never see me wear a suit of white.

- J.R Cash


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Nyeriah

Re: Wew vs Keo x Submerge aka Flooded.

#11 » Post by Nyeriah » 04 Jul 2017 16:16

We discussed it and seeing it is his first offense we have agreed to reduce his penalty to 3 days. Seeing how he has already been banned for that long, his account has been unbanned now.

Reiterating, we will take action in cases like this if we have the conviction that acts of bad faith have taken place, as addressed by the 6th rule:
6. Scam, fraud and use of other similar foul practice(s) for personal gain while damaging others.

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