Reworked buffing of endgame content

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Roel
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Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#46 » Post by Roel » 30 Jul 2015 00:00

Lanfeare wrote:I'm just curious, but where did the devs get that 3x dps data from? Currently in full pre-raid BIS, I'm pulling around the same dps as I did on a 1.12.1 server in full BWL gear. I know that 1.5 talent trees were pretty bad in general, but I would say that damage has only roughly doubled over 1.5 pre-raid geared damage for most classes assuming that they're both playing optimally.

Also, pure dps classes almost never downranked their damage abilities in vanilla pve. That was healers for the most part with a few exceptions.
Comparing the current dps numbers to information and memories from when WoW released. There are still many differences between 1.5 and 1.12. Of course that's not very accurate but many factors have already been tested and we have all noticed that even 3x is easy for the current content. There are many reasons for this but the only solution that works universally is applying a higher buff.

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Kaldar
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Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#47 » Post by Kaldar » 30 Jul 2015 00:32

Prime wrote:
Sacre12 wrote:A few considerations regarding this:
How does e.g. Ice Barrier scale with this? Will the absorb amount be increased as well?
Also, is there any way to increase Block values by a similar amount (Perhaps taking the shield block script and putting it as a passive aura)? As it is now, block is rather useless in instances when all mobs and bosses hit 3x as much.
I don't think Ice Barrier needs to be buffed as Power Word: Shield also isn't being buffed. With the previous system we saw how much less work that means for healers, absorbs should be at the same level as heals.

However I forgot about the Block Value, that's indeed something that also requires scaling.
Great to see how fast you improve the server Prime.
But one thing I really got to mention is Ice Barrier.
I did today some UBRS raids and Ice Barrier seems to be useless now. It absorbs atm 818 damage, BUT one mob hits me for 700-900, that means the Ice barrier breaks immediately... So before it could absorb 3-4 hits, so back then it was helpful since you could cast without delaying if you take damage. So maybe you could overthink this issue and scale it, not everywhere, only in dungeon and raids. Otherwise it's really useless. Not only Ice Barrier, but also Frost Ward and Fire Ward. Mana Shield would be difficult..since it would drain your whole mana because only HP is buffed.

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schlereth
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Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#48 » Post by schlereth » 30 Jul 2015 02:21

Mend pet is severely gimped with the HP buff, my pet has ~16k hp, mend pet heals for 365 a tick for a total of 1825 for the duration...

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Nyeriah

Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#49 » Post by Nyeriah » 30 Jul 2015 02:23

Hmph, it seems like these absorption shields in general (Ice Barrier, Power Word: Shield, and possibly others are suffering a backfire since the damage has been increased and they don't scale with anything)

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Hatson
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Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#50 » Post by Hatson » 30 Jul 2015 03:59

Nyeriah wrote:Hmph, it seems like these absorption shields in general (Ice Barrier, Power Word: Shield, and possibly others are suffering a backfire since the damage has been increased and they don't scale with anything)
Was that not obvious beforehand?
I mean, the same goes for blocking. Blocking becomes an incredibly gimped stat if everyone just becomes a sponge with increased dmg and hp. No point in block values or amounts when they'll go straight through it, since blocking isn't scaled as well.

If you scale one element, but not all the others, it's going to be broken no matter what. In fact, I think fiddling with scaling will only make it worse than it already is and create more problems. The reason why WoW got so shit (imo) is largely due to the insane amount of scaling. Not only HP wise, but all the other stats as well. (Resilience / PvP Stat / Armor Penetration (remember 100% armor pen times in Wrath? What a fucking joke that was))

Heck, Blizzard even said themselves that they went too crazy with scaling in lategame Vanilla items, and that is the sole reason of WHY they made all the green item drops and quests on Outland release so much higher item level, because they wanted to "reset" the situation by upscaling all the items in Outland, so the old endgame items wouldn't outclass all of them until level 70. (Which, some items still did at lvl 68-70).

And yet, every single expansion, Blizzard does the same mistake, even though they have done it so many times before, and in WoD - AGAIN they tried to "fix" the scaling, by scaling it down, but AGAIN it didn't matter for shit and fuck all changed, because they AGAIN scaled shit out of proportion as the expansion progressed like they do every single time.

Learn from Blizzard. Don't just scale things up and hope they fix themselves. That is not a solution.
Do I have a solid solution or fix right now? No, I don't. But scaling up HP and damage is not a solution. It's hardly even a fix or "patch-up", because it only creates more unwanted problems.
Last edited by ali ahmed on 30 Jul 2015 13:03, edited 2 times in total.

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Nyeriah

Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#51 » Post by Nyeriah » 30 Jul 2015 05:18

Well, this is a lot of experimental work. Honestly, as you acknowledged yourself, I don't think there's a solid solution to the problem but the best we can do is lesser the negative parts. Prime has spent a lot of time trying things and designing this so we could try a different approach to the underlying issue. However, as aforementioned, everything is quite experimental so only trying it out we'll be able to see how these changes impact game play and how players feel about them. I guess community feedback at this time is the upmost important since after all the changes took place in order to make the game play more enjoyable in our current environment

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.landgin
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Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#52 » Post by .landgin » 30 Jul 2015 06:14

@prime

Overall:

http://imgur.com/oQNKlzW (dmg)
http://imgur.com/hYfu3G4 (healing)


Last rag attempt:

http://imgur.com/UIB8WWs

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Dreadnought101
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Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#53 » Post by Dreadnought101 » 30 Jul 2015 07:00

World Bosses are a problem and need to be addressed as the 3x buff affects THE ENTIRE ZONE! this is terrible for world PvP and questing, luckily this is in azshara which is very remote but once you introduce lord Kazzak and the dream bosses, this can get out of hand. You might want to remove the damage increase on world bosses, keep the health and rely on world PvP to be the challenge.
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saturnfever
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Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#54 » Post by saturnfever » 30 Jul 2015 07:08

i dislike this buffing up of the hp pool. Mobs and bosses are higher in hp and in damage, we are just buffed in hp. Damage stays low, some spells become useless, and i just don't see the point to all these tweaking with the server. It is advertised as "vanilla progressive server with a 3.3.5 client", so why are you changing it all up now? it's starting to feel more like like a fun server. Let's buff x3 hp here, let's buff some damage there. I think i'm going to take a break until you figure out what kind of a server you are. Progressive vanilla with a 3.3.5 client or a fun server. And just as a fun fact, I went today in dire maul and the first pack of mobs did an aoe arcane volley or for 1200 damage to every member of the group, which is more than a quarter of my hp, or about so, including the 3x hp buff. The healer obviously can't handle that sort of damage, especially if there are 2 or 3 mobs casting the same spell. It's just not fun. I liked the idea at the start but now I'm like ...meh...wha'ts the point? Sounds good on paper, but in reality it's too much of a hastle, and it's going to continue to be of you continue with this tweaking. More damage here, less hp there, more mana cost here, less spells that are useful there, more damage reduction here, less healing there. Too many variables... I just like a nice clean server. As you advertised it. Not with 3x hp buff to the players, bot with hp buff to the bosses, not with insane amounts of damage from mobs and healing that can't handle the damage dealt. I agree with the fact that you buff up the bosses and some of the mobs' damage by 1.5x or something like that. Some parts of the game are just ridiculous, as i mentioned before. Caster mobs do an insane amount of damage (dire maul, scholomance, but also mobs outside dungeons, mobs that are not elites such as a ogre mage in strangtletorn vale deals an aoe frostbolt volley for 650 damage and another 200 damage a tick flamestrike, level 20 mobs deal 150 or more damage per cast, and elites of level 50 or higher deal 50 damage with their attacks, which is not normal).
You can buff the realm in other ways. I don't find this to be helpful to the server's "hardcoreness". It's just not fun. It does not make me say: "oh this was so much fun, it was hard work, but look at my reward, this definetly feels like a original vanilla server because of the buffs and debuffs made it feel so".

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ddod
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Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#55 » Post by ddod » 30 Jul 2015 08:59

So last night I hit 48 and the retarded RDF puts me in BRD group. Needless to say I couldnt keep the tank alive WHILE SPAMMING HEALS ON HIM. He was tanking 2 groups of dwarfs/dogs. Another great makeshift "fix" guys. Bravo.

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Merelleya
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Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#56 » Post by Merelleya » 30 Jul 2015 11:39

The problem with the scaling (in any direction) is, that it does not balnce with the afore-mentioned other spells. Every mechanic that revolved around damage prevention rather than heal-spamming, whether that be Frost Shield, PW Shield, Blocking, etc, is now also less useful.

While the initial intention was to debuff healing, you basically debuffed every other mechanic as well.

While I do understand that PW Shield was very powerful before, you are forgetting that it also caused a debuff (Weakened soul) so In Raids it has _never_ been possible to just "shield the tank through the whole damage". Sure you had a shield, but it always popped before the Weakened Soul ended and then there was frantic heal spamming for a few seconds, the tank almost dying and then finally you could bubble again.

The intention of any sort of shield or block mechanic is to alleviate the healing burden. That is not so much the case anymore, since in many instances the shield pops before the global cooldown is even finished. I havent done the exact numbers, but essentially, it could, in many instances, be better to just "spam heal" now.


That further narrowd the scope of useful builds.

Again, let me remind you, it was never the case that you could just "shield the whole raid". you always needed other healers and also, due to the weakened soul, you couldn#t "just keep it up" before either. There was space for someone who had the "shielder" role and there was space for someone whose job it was to "heal up after" the shield.

With what I have seen now we mainly have "Spam your greatest heal" since due to the debuff (or buff), any downranking is also not viable because the output just isnt there.

I would love it if you could look at that again and further consider whether you really reached you intended goal, since many auxiallry prevention mechanics can now not be applied effectively anymore.


P.S. I can still heal a dungeon well and shield is still sort of useful, but I wouldnt call the experience "smarter" or more difficlult, since at the moment its only "is your heal output bigger than the damage input" without anything else much I can do to "save" my tank. I either outheal the mob or I dont. End of story. The fact that the debuff also affects the scaling with spellpower certainly doesnt help^^.

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Hatson
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Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#57 » Post by Hatson » 30 Jul 2015 13:17

If shielding was the only issue, just lower the scaling on shields by a certain % until it feels balanced.

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Advokado
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Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#58 » Post by Advokado » 30 Jul 2015 13:24

saturnfever wrote:i dislike this buffing up of the hp pool. Mobs and bosses are higher in hp and in damage, we are just buffed in hp. Damage stays low, some spells become useless, and i just don't see the point to all these tweaking with the server. It is advertised as "vanilla progressive server with a 3.3.5 client", so why are you changing it all up now? it's starting to feel more like like a fun server. Let's buff x3 hp here, let's buff some damage there. I think i'm going to take a break until you figure out what kind of a server you are. Progressive vanilla with a 3.3.5 client or a fun server. And just as a fun fact, I went today in dire maul and the first pack of mobs did an aoe arcane volley or for 1200 damage to every member of the group, which is more than a quarter of my hp, or about so, including the 3x hp buff. The healer obviously can't handle that sort of damage, especially if there are 2 or 3 mobs casting the same spell. It's just not fun. I liked the idea at the start but now I'm like ...meh...wha'ts the point? Sounds good on paper, but in reality it's too much of a hastle, and it's going to continue to be of you continue with this tweaking. More damage here, less hp there, more mana cost here, less spells that are useful there, more damage reduction here, less healing there. Too many variables... I just like a nice clean server. As you advertised it. Not with 3x hp buff to the players, bot with hp buff to the bosses, not with insane amounts of damage from mobs and healing that can't handle the damage dealt. I agree with the fact that you buff up the bosses and some of the mobs' damage by 1.5x or something like that. Some parts of the game are just ridiculous, as i mentioned before. Caster mobs do an insane amount of damage (dire maul, scholomance, but also mobs outside dungeons, mobs that are not elites such as a ogre mage in strangtletorn vale deals an aoe frostbolt volley for 650 damage and another 200 damage a tick flamestrike, level 20 mobs deal 150 or more damage per cast, and elites of level 50 or higher deal 50 damage with their attacks, which is not normal).
You can buff the realm in other ways. I don't find this to be helpful to the server's "hardcoreness". It's just not fun. It does not make me say: "oh this was so much fun, it was hard work, but look at my reward, this definetly feels like a original vanilla server because of the buffs and debuffs made it feel so".
The only post i agree with in this thread, although you don't come up with a solution. What we have now is just garbage, i came here to have a vanilla experience on a wotlk client. Not this, i'm fine with tweaking mobs and raids, but please leave our damage and health alone. It's gonna get confusing every time you log in and you deal 3x the damage, 3x absorb 3x health etc.

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Merelleya
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Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#59 » Post by Merelleya » 30 Jul 2015 13:55

Prime wrote:Note: Buffing of raid content is required because our WotLK mechanics provide higher damage and healing output compared to Vanilla.

Healers will now also see high numbers and properly see their healing increase as they get better gear.

Just a quick point. the healing still does not scale properly. Before, I needed to stack more spellpower to actually see an increase in healing becasue healing was debuffed (so the heal did only scale for 1/3rd of what it should have with spellpower)..

Now, while I "see" a nomal scaling with spellpower, due to the increased damage and HP, the more healed is only 1/3rd as valuable. so there really is no difference. Stacking spellpower still only scales at 1/3rd of what it should. Mathematically, it is the same.
Last edited by Marrow on 30 Jul 2015 14:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Roel
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Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#60 » Post by Roel » 30 Jul 2015 14:02

Because there was already a MC raid, I went ahead and made the poll: http://www.primalwow.org/forum/viewtopi ... 23&t=16130
I will still give it a couple of days so everyone can try a dungeon and/or raid, then we can decide if it should be changed back next week.

Like mentioned, the server is relatively new and we are still finding the best ways to do certain things. For some things we can only get enough feedback if we let everyone try it the hard way instead of splitting a huge portion of the population to a PTR realm.

As for blocking mechanics, that should already be scaled so the effectiveness is not different from the previous system. For PW Shield we have already seen that it needs to be scaled as it makes priests too overpowered. It's supposed to be worse than any healing spell in terms of mana efficiency. Therefore I don't believe it was spammed like that in Vanilla, especially not the highest rank of the spell.

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