Reworked buffing of endgame content

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gayfruit

Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#31 » Post by gayfruit » 29 Jul 2015 21:55

I agree with Amalizzy. Warlocks should be able to heal themselves during the fight, but with an useless siphon and a way weaker death coil, we now have to actually rely on healers. This hp buff took an important part of our class away from us.

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manoroar
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Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#32 » Post by manoroar » 29 Jul 2015 22:00

As far as the lifetap thing goes, you can actually recieve a HoT that does something meaningful now, so there's that.

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Roel
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Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#33 » Post by Roel » 29 Jul 2015 22:01

Didn't see my previous post? The server already restarted so I suggest trying another dungeon. I would also appreciate if someone can post some recount results after the next raid to see how all classes are doing.

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Amalizzy

Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#34 » Post by Amalizzy » 29 Jul 2015 22:05

manoroar wrote:As far as the lifetap thing goes, you can actually recieve a HoT that does something meaningful now, so there's that.
it's same since hp is buffed, so 350-400 Hot tick won't do much... i have to tap every 3 shadowbolts and that's 5k hp...

Will test changes it later in raid tonight...

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Lanfeare
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Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#35 » Post by Lanfeare » 29 Jul 2015 22:06

Amalizzy wrote:
Lanfeare wrote:The cost on your life tap is fine. It has to be 3x if your hp is 3x. The problem is that your siphon isn't 3x right now. My VE also isn't 3x right now, so we'll just have to deal with it until these issues get fixed. This change was a worse way to fix the healing, but the devs were forced into it because all of the bad healers bitched to no end about their numbers being smaller when it made no functional difference.
What are you talking about

Image

It scales with Spell power with more spell power it's not even 1:1 ratio, atm it's 4:1 with priest and pala buffs in raid it's even close to 5:1 i should get personal healer or quit dpsing, after im OOM. and yes with good micro managment it's possible to have "infinite" mana.
Duh it scales with spellpower. That's not the point. You also didn't have a 3x hp buff on retail at 60. If LT normally has a 1:1 ratio, then it should have a 3:1 ratio under this new (bad) system with 3x player hp. if it's truly costing 5x with full buffs instead of 3x, then they made a mistake.

There are going to be hundreds of things that need fixing with this new change. Players weren't meant to have this much HP in vanilla. The feral bubble on damage, life tap, mend pet, any other form of non-healer heal, absorbs, and tons of other stuff. It's so much cleaner and easier just to nerf healing, but no because "muh big numberz!".

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gayfruit

Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#36 » Post by gayfruit » 29 Jul 2015 22:11

Oh crap I didn`t notice. Good job on that.

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Merelleya
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Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#37 » Post by Merelleya » 29 Jul 2015 22:11

As a Disc/Holy very hybrid healer:

The low numbers did not bother me before. The previous state of debuffing forced me to use shield and cooldowns more effectively and put a lot of thought into efficiency management (e.g. whether prevention was better than healing through things).

With the new version, my healing still sucks percentagewise and my shield is now not as good in alleviating the healing burden. I guess it is fair, since if one includes absorbs into healing, I am on par with a good resto Druid in UBRS.

However, I am a little concerned that all this buffing and nerfing is actually narrowing the scope of effective specs, since neither a full Disc nor a full Holy reaches any sort of potential. That also applies to group healers like Shamans or full Holy priests. But I guess one just has to find a way to deal with things. Either way, getting outhealed by a bandage still sucks and puts a very weird spin on the whole "healer" thing.

All in all, though, I feel that all healers are now more "level" with each other. (Of course I can't help feeling "nerfed" due to the sield and sort of not as useful as before...but that is just my little ego speaking).

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Roel
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Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#38 » Post by Roel » 29 Jul 2015 22:24

Maybe I could make a poll next week to see how many people prefer the HP over the healing debuff. They can only judge after trying it and I am fine with it either way. Other suggestions seem flawed so we basically only have these 2 options.

Also, with the things I learned it won't be hard to also debuff the absorbs and Swiftmend with the previous system. Those were the major problems and the reason why healing classes are more balanced now.

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Lanfeare
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Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#39 » Post by Lanfeare » 29 Jul 2015 22:44

If the HP buff ends up winning out, I feel bad for how many scaling issues the devs are going to have to sort out. It's definitely a more complicated way to do it.

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Roel
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Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#40 » Post by Roel » 29 Jul 2015 22:46

Lanfeare wrote:If the HP buff ends up winning out, I feel bad for how many scaling issues the devs are going to have to sort out. It's definitely a more complicated way to do it.
I believe most has already been done to the point where the previous system had the same amount of issues.

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Vesimies

Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#41 » Post by Vesimies » 29 Jul 2015 22:47

Prime wrote:You also need to keep in mind that your DPS is basicaly 3x as high compared to how it would be on a true 1.5 patch. So any abilities that heal based on damage output, already heal 3 times as much. You're using the max rank for those abilities instead of a downranked version.
so ... if players do 3x more dmg / heal than in vannila. Isnt easier to buff all instance ( at least " end game " one ) by something between 50-75%.

Lets say .. a mob has 8k hp now and he is doing 500dmg, so after buff will the mob has 12k hp and 750 dmg. So players like tank needs to absorb more dmg, dps have to do more dmg and healers have to heal more dmg to players and so on

Wont be this the best way how to re-work endgame content ? It seems like there is a lot problems with players stats, spells / abilities. In my opition if players have buffed all stats, because of Wotlk mechanics this might work.

what do you think ?

edit: or I missed something ? oO

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Roel
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Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#42 » Post by Roel » 29 Jul 2015 23:01

Vesimies wrote:so ... if players do 3x more dmg / heal than in vannila. Isnt easier to buff all instance ( at least " end game " one ) by something between 50-75%.

Lets say .. a mob has 8k hp now and he is doing 500dmg, so after buff will the mob has 12k hp and 750 dmg. So players like tank needs to absorb more dmg, dps have to do more dmg and healers have to heal more dmg to players and so on

Wont be this the best way how to re-work endgame content ? It seems like there is a lot problems with players stats, spells / abilities. In my opition if players have buffed all stats, because of Wotlk mechanics this might work.

what do you think ?

edit: or I missed something ? oO
I will try to explain again. 3x means 200%.

Let's say you have a raid boss that hits the tank for 4k while the tank has 5k HP. His damage would need to be buffed by 200% for healers to do the same effort as in Vanilla, now he hits the tank for 12k HP. But to make sure the tank does't get one-shot, HP has also been buffed by 200% so the tank has 15k HP.

Even buffing the boss by 20% from 4k damage to 4.8k damage would still be a joke, it would be possible to heal 40 man raids with 2-3 healers. Having a normal amount of healers means that they can go afk 2/3th of the time during a boss because there will be nothing to heal.

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Vesimies

Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#43 » Post by Vesimies » 29 Jul 2015 23:14

Prime wrote: I will try to explain again. 3x means 200%.

Let's say you have a raid boss that hits the tank for 4k while the tank has 5k HP. His damage would need to be buffed by 200% for healers to do the same effort as in Vanilla, now he hits the tank for 12k HP. But to make sure the tank does't get one-shot, HP has also been buffed by 200% so the tank has 15k HP.

Even buffing the boss by 20% from 4k damage to 4.8k damage would still be a joke, it would be possible to heal 40 man raids with 2-3 healers. Having a normal amount of healers means that they can go afk 2/3th of the time during a boss because there will be nothing to heal.
I see. The problem is bigger than it looks like. thanks for explain

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Lanfeare
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Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#44 » Post by Lanfeare » 29 Jul 2015 23:43

Prime wrote:You also need to keep in mind that your DPS is basicaly 3x as high compared to how it would be on a true 1.5 patch. So any abilities that heal based on damage output, already heal 3 times as much. You're using the max rank for those abilities instead of a downranked version.
I'm just curious, but where did the devs get that 3x dps data from? Currently in full pre-raid BIS, I'm pulling around the same dps as I did on a 1.12.1 server in full BWL gear. I know that 1.5 talent trees were pretty bad in general, but I would say that damage has only roughly doubled over 1.5 pre-raid geared damage for most classes assuming that they're both playing optimally.

Also, pure dps classes almost never downranked their damage abilities in vanilla pve. That was healers for the most part with a few exceptions.

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.landgin

Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#45 » Post by .landgin » 29 Jul 2015 23:49

My warlock has significantly less hp on this server lan. The issue however, is lifetap at the lower levels is roughly 1/3rd your hp for less than 1/6th of your mana pool.

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