Reworked buffing of endgame content

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Roel
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Reworked buffing of endgame content

#1 » Post by Roel » 29 Jul 2015 00:59

Note: Buffing of raid content is required because our WotLK mechanics provide higher damage and healing output compared to Vanilla.

Healers will now also see high numbers and properly see their healing increase as they get better gear. Hopefully this will reduce the feeling of being gimped by using buffs instead of debuffs. This is done by using the only alternative solution we could think of, buffing boss damage and player HP 3x (to prevent one-shots). It also fixes the scaling issues with "Power Word: Shield" and "Swiftmend".

In lvl 50+ BG and Arena, mana cost has been reduced to better work with the 50% HP buff that's currently being used. We will need to see how that works out before doing further changes.

Several hotfixes have been done to better work with the HP buff in both PvE and PvP. Healing potions, bandages, health regen, food, healthstones, blocks and rage now scale with the HP buff. Let me know if you notice anything else that still needs to be scaled.

Furthermore, a hardcore buff has been designed that will be used on top of the default 3x buff during the first months of a raid release. It consists of an extra HP and damage boost for bosses, but also a little more mana cost for healers. This really makes it a gear check, everyone needs enough stamina and resistance to not get one-shot and DPS needs to get the kill before healers go OOM. We will no longer do weekly nerfs but instead do a manual nerf if groups keep getting stuck at the same boss. 50% of this buff will be applied to the current raid content so we can see how this works out before new raid content is released. If this means that no tank can survive Ragnaros, we will obviously nerf it. Those who wanted to see a more difficult Molten Core will hopefully enjoy it for now.

Please let me know if you think the previous system was better, after you have tested it in both dungeons and raids. Always open for solid suggestions.

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.ithril11

Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#2 » Post by .ithril11 » 29 Jul 2015 02:10

I'm sure this was tested internally, but my biggest worry here is that this wasn't publicly tested on a separate realm before coming to live. But let's see how this works.

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Dreadnought101
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Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#3 » Post by Dreadnought101 » 29 Jul 2015 02:43

The PvP changes look pretty decent, I look forward to trying them out.

I think the raid changes are a bit extreme, Im not sure why you want to buff everyones HP by x3 when you can just have the damage not scale so significantly to 1 shot players, I wasnt aware of any scaling issues with healing like Power Word: Shield and SwiftMend but you could always tone down the numbers for later ranks on those spells, then at level 62 or 64 or whatever the next rank is after 60 you can go back to normal (2 years down the line into BC)
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.landgin

Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#4 » Post by .landgin » 29 Jul 2015 03:29

Prime, how about an additional item off the last boss when you beat it on "hard mode"? just a thought.

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mmarkov1
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Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#5 » Post by mmarkov1 » 29 Jul 2015 11:16

Prime these really are brilliant changes, and what I respect most if that you have done them so fast after getting input from community.

You are the prime reason why this server will succeed.
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Sacre12
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Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#6 » Post by Sacre12 » 29 Jul 2015 12:55

A few considerations regarding this:
How does e.g. Ice Barrier scale with this? Will the absorb amount be increased as well?
Also, is there any way to increase Block values by a similar amount (Perhaps taking the shield block script and putting it as a passive aura)? As it is now, block is rather useless in instances when all mobs and bosses hit 3x as much.

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Roel
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Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#7 » Post by Roel » 29 Jul 2015 13:36

Sacre12 wrote:A few considerations regarding this:
How does e.g. Ice Barrier scale with this? Will the absorb amount be increased as well?
Also, is there any way to increase Block values by a similar amount (Perhaps taking the shield block script and putting it as a passive aura)? As it is now, block is rather useless in instances when all mobs and bosses hit 3x as much.
I don't think Ice Barrier needs to be buffed as Power Word: Shield also isn't being buffed. With the previous system we saw how much less work that means for healers, absorbs should be at the same level as heals.

However I forgot about the Block Value, that's indeed something that also requires scaling.

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Vyse
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Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#8 » Post by Vyse » 29 Jul 2015 14:19

Player HP x3 is almost WotLK lvl of HP, I hate those huge numbers, like I do on live.

But if this will result in a more controlled and challenging raid environment, im down.

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Disan
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Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#9 » Post by Disan » 29 Jul 2015 14:48

Okay, instead of -67% healing debuff, mobs do 3x Damage and HP Pool is increased by times 3?

Right now iam spamming my heals, and hp of tank doesnt go up (ok very slowly). After that change, it will still be same, but with higher numbers? Sense anynone?

Or did i missunterstood something?

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Roel
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Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#10 » Post by Roel » 29 Jul 2015 15:42

Update: At next server restart, blocked damage and rage from received damage will also scale.
Disan wrote:Okay, instead of -67% healing debuff, mobs do 3x Damage and HP Pool is increased by times 3?

Right now iam spamming my heals, and hp of tank doesnt go up (ok very slowly). After that change, it will still be same, but with higher numbers? Sense anynone?

Or did i missunterstood something?
Yes, like explained earlier this is just a matter of numbers and what players prefer. This is the 3rd and most complicated method we're trying because players don't like to see their DPS and healing debuffed to Vanilla levels.

Healing only a fraction of the tank HP is also how it was in Vanilla with lower mana regen and downranking. Completely customizing bosses or limiting raids to 10-20 man is probably the last thing players want.

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Sacre12
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Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#11 » Post by Sacre12 » 29 Jul 2015 15:59

Disan wrote:Okay, instead of -67% healing debuff, mobs do 3x Damage and HP Pool is increased by times 3?

Right now iam spamming my heals, and hp of tank doesnt go up (ok very slowly). After that change, it will still be same, but with higher numbers? Sense anynone?

Or did i missunterstood something?
Power Word: Shield and Swiftmend were previously not affected by the healing debuff; remaking it this way puts them in the same spot as everything else. It also addresses the issue with Life Tap and overtaxing healers that way when they're debuffed (Assuming Life Tap isn't scaled as well; though I would seriously doubt so).

(Edit: Prime beat me to it; also worth noting is that currently, addons such as Grid2 (That I'm personally using) display incoming heals, but the display amount is unaffected by the healing debuff. This also fixes addons like that; I'd assume every addon behaves this way).

Regarding further scaling:
Drain Life, Devouring Plague, Shadow Embrace and Mortal coil comes to mind. Regarding Ice Barrier (And all of these abilities, really) as far as I know the debuff was limited to healing classes in order to let the other classes' self healing and defensive abilities work as normal. I personally find it rather silly if two bandage ticks by a mage heals for more than an Ice Barrier, but how it'll actually turn out in practice, we'll see. (Note that I wouldn't think e.g. Mortal Coil should be scaled up in PvP - unsure of whether it is or not currently - but that's up to you).

And regarding bandage ticks: Currently, I've several times seen healers hit around 100-200hps (Rather small sample size, but it's an example). With this, that equals 600 hps, and a rather large portion of this are druid hots. Bandage pre-buff heals for 250, and with this, presumably 750. In other words, bandaging nearby people who aren't constantly taking damage is seemingly more efficient in terms of output than healing them outright - not to mention there's zero mana cost to boot. I'm sure this was never the case in any expansion I've seen through WoW this far, so I doubt it's intended, and I'm unsure of how that would be fixed (Or if it'll be left to stay; up to you guys in this case. I'll reserve any personal judgments for after the next MC raid).

Few more notes:
The 33% "mana" cost debuff in PvP doesn't only affect mana, but also Energy; tested on a Rogue. I assume it works the same for Warriors and Druids. If it's of any interest, it also seem to reduce base values rather than final values; Cheap Shot currently costs 40 energy without the -20 talent, and 20 energy with it (Instead of 27 as it would cost if it'd be applied the other way around). Unsure if this matters once the non-mana costs are reverted.

I've also heard reports about LBRS being surprisingly easy (And presumably UBRS as well), while Stratholme was surprisingly difficult. If nothing else, I'd recommend to check the values for the mob buff in BRS. Can't confirm either of this personally, however.

I also currently assume this HP buff should apply to pets as well, but regarding that I have no idea what the current state is. That might already be the case.

I might update the post if I think of anything else.

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Lanfeare
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Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#12 » Post by Lanfeare » 29 Jul 2015 18:29

This seems like it's going to cause a wave of massive imbalance for at least a little whIle. Another thing that's difficult is taking into account that buffing things like health stones buffs a warlock's defensive skill, but the same cannot be applied to a shadow priest's bubble and VE due to priests being a potential healer.

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hakimers
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Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#13 » Post by hakimers » 29 Jul 2015 19:10

Yep, it makes rage/energy users kinda crazy, bursting like mad.

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Lanfeare
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Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#14 » Post by Lanfeare » 29 Jul 2015 19:49

Yeah, there's no reason that rage/energy costs should be reduced. That just makes it so that mana users have to contend with the buffed HP while melee basically doesn't (basically just nerfs their white damage while all caster damage is nerfed).

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Amalizzy

Re: Reworked buffing of endgame content

#15 » Post by Amalizzy » 29 Jul 2015 20:17

Ok warlocks are gimped again,
With increased HP, life tap uses x3 more health then before and give same ammount of mana (you can also say x3 reduced if you look at amount of hp used), also my Siphon life restores unbuffed ammount of hp, because of this warlock is more broken then ever.

Edit just tested it: Just 1 life tap take ~4k HP and restore 1k mana... which is... it should be close to 1:1 (with paladin and priest buff difference is just too huge to be overlooked)

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