Paladin [Righteous Vengeance]

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Justicelight
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Paladin [Righteous Vengeance]

#1 » Post by Justicelight » 07 Dec 2013 15:07

Righteous Vengeance is a Tier 10 Retribution talent which places a stacking dot on the target based on critical strike damage dealt by the Paladin's Divine Storm, Crusader Strike and Judgement Spells.

The damage of the dot is an amount of the critical strike done by the paladin on the target.

This talent can be talented up to 3 times (% damage of critical strike amount) -> 10%/20%/30%.

The dot ticks every 2 seconds, 4 times totally.

This screenshot shows my paladin retribution tree, respectively how many points are spent into RV(righteous vengeance) talent.

[hide]Image[/hide]

>>Enough with introductions, now the buggy part <<

I tested all 3 abilities able to proc RV: DS, CS and Judgement.

Calculations:

>>How it should be & How it is (bug) <<
RV dot formula in my case, with 2/3 RV talent is: Critical damage * 20% = Critical damage/5;
RV tick formula: Critical damage/5/4;

Divine Storm:
[hide]Damage: 1607;
RV damage: 1607/5= 321.4 ~ 321
RV tick damage: 321/4= 80.25 ~ 80

Screenshot of actual damage of RV ticks:
Image[/hide]

Crusader Strike:
[hide]Damage: 1253;
RV damage: 1253/5= 250.6 ~ 251
RV tick damage: 251/4= 62.75 ~ 63

Screenshot of actual damage of RV ticks:
Image[/hide]

Judgement:
[hide]Damage: 1817;
RV damage: 1817/5= 363.4 ~ 363
RV tick damage: 363/4= 90.75 ~ 91

Screenshot of actual damage of RV ticks:
Image[/hide]

With an overall looking:
[hide]Lets say X = all abilities damage of RV ticks(theory) and Y = all abilities damage of RV ticks(bug)

X= 80 (DS) + 63 (CS) + 91 (Judge)= 234
Y= 60 (DS) + 46 (CS) + 68 (Judge) = 174

X-Y = 234-174= 60 (difference between theory and bug)
60/X= 60/234 * 100= 25.6 % ~ 26% (nerf value)[/hide]

You get a round number which shows that RV damage is nerfed by 26%.

In long fights this can be valuable damage lost but also in bursting fights. This talent(RV) has the ability to stack with itself which makes the 26% value to matter even more in time, read more about RV stacking:
[hide]"A Judgement crit for 1000 damage puts an 8 second debuff of 400 damage on the target ticking for 100 damage every 2 seconds, then a Divine Storm critical strike 4 seconds later also for 1000 damage will refresh the debuff duration to 8 seconds, and will add the 400 damage to the 200 still left in the pot, and will therefore tick for 150 damage until the buff expires or another critical strike refreshes the stack. "[/hide]

But even more concern should be award into PVE part, where we all know that the stats of a paladins are greatly increased by raid buffs, icc buff, and others meaning RV % nerf value amount greatly increases too.

*(more details about RV can be found here: http://www.wowwiki.com/Righteous_Vengeance )

I hope this will be fixed soon, I personally consider it a vital nerf for paladins same as others I have tried to report.

Thank you in advance, and sorry for my english.

Have fun, JL :)
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Re: Paladin [Righteous Vengeance]

#2 » Post by Myaoming » 07 Dec 2013 16:16

I'm not surprised it's doing less damage than it should. I believe there's something called Resilience. No need to explain what Resilience does.

Test this again in PvE and report back plox.
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Re: Paladin [Righteous Vengeance]

#3 » Post by Justicelight » 07 Dec 2013 17:15

No time for edit, sry: http://imgur.com/Bq5hGn3
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Re: Paladin [Righteous Vengeance]

#4 » Post by Myaoming » 07 Dec 2013 19:33

^
Judgement hits for 4946 (Critical)

According to your formula:
RV damage: 4946/5= 989.2 ~ 989
RV tick damage: 989/4= 247.3 ~ 247

You're saying RV is doing less damage then it's supposed to do, but this last screenshot proves that it's doing more since Babamraz got hit by 254 ticks. 254 > 247

I also asked for a test without Resilience.. Well maybe he was in full PvE gear but nothing was actually mentioned.
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Siforosse of the Undercity: Level 80 Undead Affliction Warlock PvP/Demon PvE
Zibuluge of the Ashen Verdict: Level 80 Human Frost DK PvP/PvE
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Re: Paladin [Righteous Vengeance]

#5 » Post by Justicelight » 07 Dec 2013 20:23

Hmm, You are right about PvE part. In PvE(0 resil target) the damage is more than it should but if the target has resilience the damage is reduced more than it should be.
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Re: Paladin [Righteous Vengeance]

#6 » Post by Nyeriah » 07 Dec 2013 21:01

Sounds like a bug around resilience :P Never really had faith that it was working as it should and probably isn't

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Re: Paladin [Righteous Vengeance]

#7 » Post by Relina » 08 Dec 2013 07:51

Its probably b'cos RV damage calculation is double dipping into resilience damage reduction, once to reduce the crit damage of the ability & again to reduce the dot damage.
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Re: Paladin [Righteous Vengeance]

#8 » Post by Myaoming » 08 Dec 2013 10:02

When Justice took his 1st Judgment Crit value to apply his formula on in the main post, it was an already reduced damage by Resilience (Damage reduction + Crit damage reduction).

However, Resilience applies one reduction on RV ticks since they are not Crits.

So just like Nyeriah said, it's most likely a bug around Resilience. Anyway all this needs futher testing.
Elder Myaoming (aka Slardar): Level 80 Tauren Feral PvE/PvP
Siforosse of the Undercity: Level 80 Undead Affliction Warlock PvP/Demon PvE
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Re: Paladin [Righteous Vengeance]

#9 » Post by Kengur » 08 Dec 2013 18:53

I would say RV dmg is higher for 3% dmg, so talents which increase dmg increase ticks too

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Re: Paladin [Righteous Vengeance]

#10 » Post by ???? » 09 Dec 2013 17:03

Righteous Vengeance is actually bugged in two ways. We further tested a while back and discovered that.

While RV is damaging a target with Resilience, it's doing less damage than it should. Whereas while damaging a target without Resilience, it's doing more damage than it should.

Simply said, in PvP, RV is bugged in an UP way. In PvE, it's bugged in an OP way.

It'd be understandable if the cause for the case in PvP to be due to Resilience applying more than it should, though I'm not sure what could be making RV do more damage than it should in PvE.

Since there's no Resil, RV doesn't get affected by its possible bug. So then why is it doing more damage? Could RV be bugged identically in both cases? I mean, around Resilience.

If Resilience is present, it gets applied more than it should, resulting in less RV damage than supposed. If Resilience is absent, it gets subtracted. As in, negative Resilience. You take more damage, as if you have negative Resilience. Currently I don't know what else could be causing that except for this.
Last edited by ???? on 09 Dec 2013 17:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Paladin [Righteous Vengeance]

#11 » Post by emsy » 09 Dec 2013 17:13

---- wrote: though I'm not sure what could be making RV do more damage than it should in PvE.
1 post above
Kengur wrote:I would say RV dmg is higher for 3% dmg, so talents which increase dmg increase ticks too
perhaps?

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Re: Paladin [Righteous Vengeance]

#12 » Post by ???? » 09 Dec 2013 17:32

The only Talent that might - just might - do that, would be Sanctified Retribution, which increases damage done by 3% when any of the Paladin's Auras are active. Could be applying that effect twice on RV so that it deals 3% more DMG. Possibly.
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Re: Paladin [Righteous Vengeance]

#13 » Post by emsy » 09 Dec 2013 18:11

---- wrote:The only Talent that might - just might - do that, would be Sanctified Retribution, which increases damage done by 3% when any of the Paladin's Auras are active. Could be applying that effect twice on RV so that it deals 3% more DMG. Possibly.
really? how about Vengeance, Crusade or 2h spec? It is much more probable than some "negative resilience" theory (which is bullshit tbh)

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Re: Paladin [Righteous Vengeance]

#14 » Post by Justicelight » 09 Dec 2013 20:54

Ok so, if the RV damage is highly boosted by Vengeance and Crusade (2h specialization talent doesnt affect the dot dmg directly) this means that resilience scales more than it should on those ticks. I don`t even know from what angle I should view this...

P.S: I have asked someone who knows dev`s from a big romanian server, to try asking them to share the fixes of some bug`s of paladin here. She has been told that "we had to rewrite the whole damaging system". I hope I`ll get something soon :D... :(
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Re: Paladin [Righteous Vengeance]

#15 » Post by ???? » 09 Dec 2013 22:55

emsy wrote:really? how about Vengeance, Crusade or 2h spec? It is much more probable than some "negative resilience" theory (which is bullshit tbh)
Vengeance is a stackable buff. Justicelight has rank three of it - 3% per stack for 9% in total at three stacks. The tests were done under the effects of 3X VEN. If Vengeance were to be the bugged Talent then it applying twice would be a 9% boost on top for RV, not 3%. Same goes for Crusade since it's a 3% boost to overall damage, and 3% more on top if damaging let's say Humanoid-class targets, for 6% overall, which was also the case, so if that were to be bugged then that would be a 6% boost on top. Same goes for 2H Spec - 6% as well. Sanctified Retribution seems the most plausible to me as it gives a 3% increase to damage, so if it were to be the bugged Talent - there's your additional 3% increase on RV on top.

About the negative Resilience theory, that was more based on the characteristics of RV's bug on targets with Resilience. At first I thought since in one environment it deals less damage and in another it deals more then it could be bugged around just one thing - more of it in the first case and less of it in the second case, which led me to that suggestion of a conclusion, without taking the differnce in numbers between the two cases into consideration though. Seeing as the difference in PvE is much smaller - around 3%, then it indeed seems more logical to be a Talent in its case.

Also to be honest as well, even if you say it's a "bullshit" theory, it's still a theory - better have some theorycrafting than none if things should get fixed here, don'cha think.
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