Armor Penetration calculations

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HeadOwn
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Armor Penetration calculations

#1 » Post by HeadOwn » 29 Apr 2014 11:40

Sup fellas, many warriors don't know how ArP actually works, and when I saw many I really mean it, so everything I'm gonna say here is not stuff that I'm saying out of my a**, they are informations that Blizzard gave us and TankSpot made the calculations.

Even few months ago I used to think that an Arms Warrior going for 100% ArP is wrong cuz then Battle Stance would be useless, but the infos that I have here prove the wrong, I'm playing as Fury on both of my toons for PvE and I'm always doing Sunder to 5 stacks + using Shattering Throw on BL, ppl say "why the fck would u use these both if we have 100% ArP already?", well, to calculate the Armor Constant (as TankSpot call it) they use (targetarmor - C) / 3 which Blizzard supported it, C is the Armor Constant, to calculate the max armor that u can take from a boss with ur passive ArP that u can reach a max of 1.4k which is 100% u will have to do the following:
C = 400 + 85 * targetlevel + 4.5 * 85 *(targetlevel - 59), the bosses in general are lvl 83, so
C = 400 + 85 * 83 + 4.5 * 85 * (83 - 95) so this gives us
C = 7455 + 9180 which
C = 16635

Now: the average Boss Base Armor in WotLK is 10643
(targetarmor + C) / 3
(10643 + 16635) / 3
so basically, 9092 out of 10643 is the max armor that u can reduce from a boss if u r ate 100% ArP from ur items and gems, u should also notice when u mouseover ur Hit in the char pannel if u r at 100% then u will see (up to 100% of the armor ignored), this "up to" doesn't mean that it's 100%, it means that the max that it can reduce is 100%, and as I said that if u have 100% and if u ignore 100% then the max armor that u can get off the boss
is 9092 if he has 10643 armor so 1551 armor left.

Effects such as Faerie Fire (5% armor reduction), Battle Stance (10% ignored armor), Mace Spec (15% ignored armor), a talent in the DK blood tree, Sunder Armor or Expose Armor (20% armor reduction), Shattering Throw (20% armor reduction), these effects will reduce the boss's main armor, the 10643 to a lower level so the ones with 100% passive ArP can penetrate more, so this is how it works,
it takes FF first cuz it has the lowest armor reduction, then if u r in BS so it's 10% for u, then the remaining of this armor will be reduced by Mace Spec if u have it by 15%, then the remaining of this armor will be reduced by Sunder Armor or Expose Armor, then the remaining will be reduced by Shattering Throw, one thing that the many warriors don't know is that u can stack Shattering Throws, like lets say 4 warriors do Shattering Throw at the same time then 20% from the first one, the remaining armor will be reduced by the 2nd one, then the remaining by the 3rd one and so on and so on, this doesn't mean it will reduce 80%, but it will 20%, then 20%, then 20% and then 20% which still a huge dps increase for the entire raid, ppl say "I'm not gonna bother and go to BS and spend casting time using ST", well, if u r an un-experienced stance dancer then it will take u a max of 3.5secs or even 4secs, but if u r good in stance dancing then only 2 seconds of dps loss but in compensation a 9 seconds dps increase for u and for ur entire raid.

So, calculating that u have FF active on him, Sunder or Expose Armor up all the time and Shattering Throw on the BL/Heroism or whenever its off cd then it's a huuuuuuuuuge dps increase for ur entire raid and for yourself too, now something that I'm not sure is that these effects reduce the boss's armor before the calculation or they reduce it from the 1551 left from our first calculations, in any of the ways, it's really good to have the armor reductions effects on the bosses, 1 thing to note also is that Sunder is bugged here, the way it should work is like this, let's say I'm using Sunder and stacking it, then another warrior use Sunder then all of my stacks are gone and it starts from 1 stack to him, and any other warrior that uses Sunder will remove his stacks and start his own stacks, but the way it works here that let's say we have 5 warriors in the raid, if all of them use Sunder only once then it can stack to 5, other warriors using Sunder over ur Sunder won't remove ur Sunder effect, but it will help it stacking, so other warriors helping u to Sunder is better than u Sundering alone, for any other informations u can check This which is kinda the same explanation but with more numbers, hope I could help u understand how ArP really works.
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Re: Armor Penetration calculations

#2 » Post by Nyaneve » 29 Apr 2014 13:15

Informative post, but I think its in the wrong subsection. It should be moved to the general discussion section.

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Re: Armor Penetration calculations

#3 » Post by Relina » 29 Apr 2014 16:54

Slight correction.
Armor reduction given by various talents/Battle Stance & arp rating adds upto final 100% of the "ArP effectiveness cap".
The armor reduction from debuffs (Shattering Throw, Faerie Fire & Sunder Armor/Expose Armor) is calculated separately from aforementioned cap.
For more info read > here <.

But I do agree with you on the point, using Sunder Armor as fury/arms (pve) if there is no prot warrior in raid is a dps gain to both the warrior & the raid.

Shattering Throw on the other-hand is more a matter of balancing dps lost from the warrior casting it vs raid dps gain, & as such can vary from warrior to warrior as well as based on raid composition.

As for Faerie Fire it should be applied by 1 druid (preferably Balance due to bugs on TW).
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Re: Armor Penetration calculations

#4 » Post by HeadOwn » 29 Apr 2014 17:28

Many people have different ideas about Battle Stance 10% ArP, as stated in Battle Stance "A balanced combat stance that increases the armor penetration of all of your attacks by 10%" as blizzard said, it increases the arp of your attacks and not your arp by 10%, in blizzard's opinion, having 10% increased on ur passive arp that u get from gems and gear is OP, u can also have a look Here
On a target where the max armor reduction is 100 (after applying the cap formulas above) the battle stance buff is applied first, increasing armor pen by 10% for a total armor reduction of 10.

The target now has a total of 90 armor that can be reduced, and mace spec is applied reducing the effect by 90 armor * 0.15 armor reduction = 13.5 armor reduced, and reducing total armor which can be reduced to 76.5.

Then the characters ArP from gear is applied to that 76.5 armor. 76.5 * 0.32 = approx 24.5 armor reduced. 76.5 - 24.5 = 52 armor

So from a total of 100 armor that could be reduced, it has been reduced to 52 armor, for a total reduction of 48% which matches what the EJ spreadsheet says.
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Re: Armor Penetration calculations

#5 » Post by Relina » 29 Apr 2014 18:42

Calculating the ARP it's done in 2 parts:

First up - the debuffs. These reduce your target's initial armor. For example, if your target has 10k armor and it gets 20% sunder, its armor would be 8k. The debuffs stack additively, so Faerie Fire will stack with sunder, totaling a 25% reduction on the target, taking it to 7.5k armor.

Second, comes the formula GC provided, you grab the armor after the debuff calculation and to that armor you apply the formula (armor + C)/3. Using the same example as before, lets say the target is level 80, so C=15232.5, now calculate (7500 + 15232.5)/3 = 7577.5. This makes the target's armor lower than the result, meaning that each 1% removes 75 armor and you are hitting a 0 armor target on the 100% ARP get. The ArP "buffs" (items, stances and such) stack additively too, meaning that 90% ARP on battle stance for a warrior would mean a 100% ARP final.


P.S. Blizzard tool-tips are highly obfuscated, since pre 4.0 they often neglected to update the in-game tool-tips to reflect changes to mechanics.

P.P.S This discussion on Battle Stance is pointless since there are almost no endgame PvE Arms warriors.

P.P.P.S.
HeadOwn wrote:1 thing to note also is that Sunder is bugged here, the way it should work is like this, let's say I'm using Sunder and stacking it, then another warrior use Sunder then all of my stacks are gone and it starts from 1 stack to him, and any other warrior that uses Sunder will remove his stacks and start his own stacks, but the way it works here that let's say we have 5 warriors in the raid, if all of them use Sunder only once then it can stack to 5, other warriors using Sunder over ur Sunder won't remove ur Sunder effect, but it will help it stacking, so other warriors helping u to Sunder is better than u Sundering alone
Sorry about this, but you have almost no idea what you're talking about.
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Re: Armor Penetration calculations

#6 » Post by Blacklustersoldier » 29 Apr 2014 21:52

he is right about sunder armor though, currently it's bugged and 5 wars can stack it together to 5 stacks... normally if war A uses sunder armor it should replace sunder armor from war B

at least that's what I was told by many wars back on BC
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Re: Armor Penetration calculations

#7 » Post by HeadOwn » 29 Apr 2014 22:12

Discussion about BS isn't pointless cuz I'm just pointing out and saying how it works, I was playing as arms untill my pc got fcked up here, and with a fcked up pc u can pull more dps as fury than arms.
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Re: Armor Penetration calculations

#8 » Post by innocentguy » 30 Apr 2014 03:06

TL, DR version of this cool topic:

Even with 100% ArP, you won't ignore 100% of the boss's armour, so there will still be a dps gain from applying armour reducing effects.
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Re: Armor Penetration calculations

#9 » Post by Justicelight » 30 Apr 2014 03:38

Here is something made by Diryn (Headhvnterz).

http://jsfiddle.net/AS6Mr/embedded/result/

very nice tool based on wowwiki arp tables
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Re: Armor Penetration calculations

#10 » Post by Relina » 30 Apr 2014 03:57

Justicelight wrote:Here is something made by Diryn (Headhvnterz).

http://jsfiddle.net/AS6Mr/embedded/result/

very nice tool based on wowwiki arp tables
That tool is nice but slightly inaccurate... Sunder Armor & Expose Armor both give 20% reduction & don't stack with each other, Faerie Fire & Curse of Weakness both give 5% & don't stack with each other.

Major Armor Debuffs (Sunder Armor/Expose Armor/Acid Spit) & Minor Armor Debuffs (Faerie Fire/Curse of Weakness/Sting) do stack additively
HeadOwn wrote: Well I guess that u should do more researches when u play on ur warrior and test if Sunder Armor is working as I said, or wait, u don't bother using Sunder cuz u don't wanna decrease ur dps.
Since you have never raided with my warrior / rogue, I'll overlook your assumption that I don't use SA / EA.

As for doing research on class mechanics...



The OP while well intentioned is mostly inaccurate.
I'm just gonna stop posting now.
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Re: Armor Penetration calculations

#11 » Post by HeadOwn » 30 Apr 2014 08:13

Now, with multiple warriors you can all throw up sunders to reduce the initial cost,

Even with a warrior MT/OT, the smoothest way to do it is to have the rest of the warriors still throw up at least 1-2 sunders so there are 5 up asap.
thnx for this info, been playing with ppl that played on retail and they said that it shouldn't stack if separate warriors did it.
Last edited by HeadOwn on 01 May 2014 13:58, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Armor Penetration calculations

#12 » Post by Relina » 01 May 2014 07:46

HeadOwn wrote: been playing with ppl that played on retail and they said that it shouldn't stack if separate warriors did it.
Those people are probably :arrowd: type of people lol.
HeadOwn wrote: don't bother using Sunder cuz u don't wanna decrease ur dps
[hide="Off-topic"]P.S. I did remove the quote where you said, you have only played on private servers since on afterthought it did n't seem relevant to this topic :).[/hide]
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Re: Armor Penetration calculations

#13 » Post by HeadOwn » 01 May 2014 13:57

Those people are probably :arrowd: type of people lol.
Yeah you are probably right.

Thnx for the Sunder Armor info, I just thought it worked differently cuz like 8 ppl told me that, I also removed some unnecessary things that I said, don't wanna make enemies here :P
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Re: Armor Penetration calculations

#14 » Post by Crown » 11 Oct 2014 21:25

Since this thread is for 83 level targets, their armor constant (called "C") equals 16635.
Assuming every 83 level target (a raid boss) has 13083 armor, based on EJ post, (http://forums.elitistjerks.com/topic/37 ... r-testing/)
with Sunder (20% armor reduction) and Fearie Fire (5% armor reduction) and their ability to stack (25% of 13083 is 9812,25) the cap would be (9812,25+16635)/3=8815,75.
If you have 100% ArPen, you will ignore 8815,75 armor. The effective armor on the target would be 996.5 (9812,25-8815,75)

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