Prot pally single target threat

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Fitzpatrick
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#136 » Post by Fitzpatrick » 06 Oct 2017 18:52

Nyeriah wrote:
06 Oct 2017 17:16
I think we are past the point here, the idea with all those custom changes that were applied to classes was to make every spec work. But lately it seems like that at the slightest issue people find they demand a change.

Not every class has the best performance at every scenario, and arbitrary changing things so they are all exceeding at everything they do is just breaking the game, and leads to this sort of slippery slope.
I agree on all points, Ny. While discussion and suggestions are great, I think a dose of caution and skepticism is always called for before enacting any changes. I disagree with locking threads tho.
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#137 » Post by Scen » 06 Oct 2017 23:51

Nyeriah wrote:
06 Oct 2017 17:16
I think we are past the point here, the idea with all those custom changes that were applied to classes was to make every spec work. But lately it seems like that at the slightest issue people find they demand a change.

Not every class has the best performance at every scenario, and arbitrary changing things so they are all exceeding at everything they do is just breaking the game, and leads to this sort of slippery slope.
So you're not actually aiming for balance then? It's a really easy way out to just claim people are whiners.
Dunkelstein wrote:
06 Oct 2017 18:21
As long as tanks struggle with threat the dps will just have to watch theirs.
Unless you're a warrior.

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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#138 » Post by Nyeriah » 07 Oct 2017 00:01

Having every class be good main tanks and aoe tanks isn't the goal because that's not how the game was designed to start with. There will always be classes that stand out better than others at something. Balancing has nothing to do with reinventing classes.

Telling me I'm claiming people are whiners without acknowledging what I and the others tried to tell you is also a rather easy way out.

Unless the numbers are abysmally lower than the other tanking classes, there has already been enough work done on paladins for the time being. They already moved away from the nonviable state they were in vanilla.

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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#139 » Post by Dunkelstein » 07 Oct 2017 00:54

Scen wrote:
06 Oct 2017 23:51
Dunkelstein wrote:
06 Oct 2017 18:21
As long as tanks struggle with threat the dps will just have to watch theirs.
Unless you're a warrior.
Sorry, but I am just too sick of this.

Do Warriors get an instant cast AoE DoT with 100% uptime? A self-ress on a 2min CD that can ignore boss mechanics, without even losing aggro or buffs? Access to the best raid buffs out of any class in the game? TWO CDs that can literally save other player's lives? An AoE stun and the best fear in the game against demons and undead, which are in the majority of TBC and LK raids (Demons and Undead themed expansions!)?

After having run all the raid content now, some of it twice, I can already tell you that Paladins are more than just viable. In 5 man dungeons they are simply better than warriors, since 80% of time spent and wipes(!) in those actually happens on trash mobs. Even in some raid encounters they are better than warriors (Turn Evil for Magtheridon, Moroes, AoE stun...). While warriors require at least two hunters to spam Misdirection in order to hold aggro on Prince in Kara, arguably the hardest boss on tanks, Paladins can simply keep casting their spells without getting Thrashed to death from his parries.
None of the tanks are the best at everything. You are always going to have another tank in your raid to fill out your weak spots.

You are honestly lacking in both experience and gear to claim that your spec needs buffs, and you throwing out something like this against a staff member who is contributing to the discussion makes me sick.
If you actually come up with a plausible idea, you're free to make a suggestion post yourself or discuss on the Paladin forums! Until then stop blaming other people for not fixing your problems (THAT is what makes you a whiner).

Somebody please just end this thread already.
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#140 » Post by Scen » 07 Oct 2017 00:57

Me and the other people that play prot paladin are not arguing that prot pala should be the best at everything merely that they are struggling in certain areas and need a bit of help there. The arguement being that they need a bit more threat generated against single target. Personally I think the mana cost's are a bit too high on some of the spells also (AS/HS). I don't think anyone is claiming that prot paladins are completely unviable but they're struggling in certain areas. I don't think they need major buffs but minor ones.

I've seen the things that other people have tried to tell me i.e. my gear sucks and I'm doing everything wrong but completely ignoring that I'm not the prot paladin that started this thread and there have been others much better geared than me and more experienced with similar complaints.

A healthy amount of caution and skepticism is good when deciding whether or not to make changes but sometimes a fear of change and slippery slopes can make it hard to see the truth.
Dunkelstein wrote:
07 Oct 2017 00:54
You are honestly lacking in both experience and gear to claim that your spec needs buffs, and you throwing out something like this against a staff member who is contributing to the discussion makes me sick.
I'm sick of you making attacks against me like I'm the only one saying these things. I did not start the thread complaining about prot paladins lack of single target threat. You are targetting me specifically while ignoring all the other people saying the same things. I've talked to other prot paladins who are saying similar things and I've named them but you keep targetting me and saying "it's just that you suck". Also I've given my suggestions for what I think would help(Lower mana cost and CD on avengers shield to help with threat, lower mana cost on holy shield). In fact even you have agreed with other posts here saying that prot paladin needs a buff, (you said +1 to a 5% dmg increase). You're literally agreeing with me while saying I'm wrong.

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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#141 » Post by Dunkelstein » 07 Oct 2017 01:38

Scen wrote:
07 Oct 2017 00:57
I'm sick of you making attacks against me [...]. I've talked to other prot paladins who are saying similar things and I've named them but you keep targetting me and saying "it's just that you suck".
I've never said that you suck. Just that you haven't been to a single Kara and your tanking gear can be improved a lot before complaining.
Scen wrote:
07 Oct 2017 00:57
You are targetting me specifically while ignoring all the other people saying the same things.[...]In fact even you have agreed with other posts here [...]
How am I agreeing with other people and ignoring them at the same time?
Scen wrote:
07 Oct 2017 00:57
You're literally agreeing with me while saying I'm wrong.
No
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#142 » Post by cts17 » 07 Oct 2017 01:48

Hey all, I just wanted to say that I tanked Kara on Lighthammer yesterday and I had zero difficulty with maintaining aggro. The only time we wiped was on Prince when he got lucky. Second attempt had him down. I only had 1 piece of Kara tanking gear, the rest was pre-raid.

I'm not worried about paladin threat at the moment, especially with the ridiculous scaling we get from Strength.

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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#143 » Post by Scen » 07 Oct 2017 02:14

Dunkelstein wrote:
06 Oct 2017 12:19
natnat123 wrote:
06 Oct 2017 12:11
buff the one handed mellee weapon damage talent, easy fix.
+1
If possible this is probably even better than increasing RF threat (RF threat increases all the AoE abilities, too).
Ontop of that mana can still be tuned if that's not enough, as was already done (see Anesthesia's post).
This is you agreeing that prot pala needs a buff.

You keep bringing up my gear and progress as an arguement that prot doesn't need any help. I am not the only person saying these things and I've talked to other higher geared and more progressed prot paladins saying similar things. You're ignoring the progression/gear of others and targetting me.

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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#144 » Post by Dreadnought101 » 07 Oct 2017 02:19

Just jumping back in, paladins scale quite well but atm its hard to hold threat in dungeons and on aoe fights, and im geared to the teeth with pre-bis and some T4 gear, im not really interested in later raid balance as that has less of an impact then what prot palladins can and cant do in normal/heroic dungeons and first stepping into raids which has a far greater impact on a much larger portion of the playerbase, it also comes back to backscaling, strong geared dps with a weak tank in a dungeon, im loosing threat to players that are geared to the teeth in both aoe and single target fights, let alone tanks with much less gear and less optimized playstyles/talents.

That being said...

I have tested the PTR and the buff with righteous fury from 80% to 100% is extreme, 85% or 90% is much more reasonable adjustment. However I would still be in favor of buffing 1H specc from 3-6-10% to 4-8-12% instead of the proposed/implemented changes to righteous fury so that the threat generated by damage feels more natural and the overall dps of prot palladins is more similar to druids and warriors
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Fitzpatrick
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#145 » Post by Fitzpatrick » 07 Oct 2017 02:24

RF has already been boosted to 100%.

Also, my main warlock can fairly easily pull aggro off any tank - especially in AE. That's not a paladin thing, thats a TBC Primal thing.

P.S. - I notice a lot of you guys are not taking Vindication. Thats...odd. I've also noticed some of you complaining about mana costs are not taking Benediction (-10% mana costs on everything you'll be using) and a lot of you are taking Reckoning (which seems good but starts to suck when you're getting hit less and less with gear - also, melee is a laughably low part of your threat and seals are usually a distant 3rd for me). Check some raiding Protadin's spec if you don't believe me.
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#146 » Post by Scen » 07 Oct 2017 02:38

Didn't someone say that they can't change any of talents or was that incorrect? There seems to be a lot of going in circles of people saying to change the talents or add SotR but people have already said they can't do that in the thread.
Fitzpatrick wrote:
07 Oct 2017 02:24

P.S. - I notice a lot of you guys are not taking Vindication. Thats...odd. I've also noticed some of you complaining about mana costs are not taking Benediction (-10% mana costs on everything you'll be using) and a lot of you are taking Reckoning (which seems good but starts to suck when you're getting hit less and less with gear - also, melee is a laughably low part of your threat and seals are usually a distant 3rd for me). Check some raiding Protadin's spec if you don't believe me.
What are your main damage spells then? Do you use Seal of Corruption? Do you take benediction and vindication cause that's 7 talent points that could be used elsewhere? Do you run low on mana at any time?

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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#147 » Post by Fitzpatrick » 07 Oct 2017 02:43

HS and Consecrate, ofc. I use SoC on trash and SoV on bosses.

Edit - here's my dude: https://truewow.org/armory/talents.php? ... alm=p&sp=0
I have a different type of spec because 1) I think Divine Sac combined with /cancelaura is a pretty bad ass cooldown, 2) I really like SoC for trash and quicker kills, and 3) I think pursuit of justice is good for compensating with the otherwise lack of mobility the paladin compared to Feral/Prots. You could probably just copy Ohdyr's prot spec if you want the min/max best spec - but I like mine.
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#148 » Post by Scen » 07 Oct 2017 02:58

Fitzpatrick wrote:
07 Oct 2017 02:43
HS and Consecrate, ofc. I use SoC on trash and SoV on bosses.

Edit - here's my dude: https://truewow.org/armory/talents.php? ... alm=p&sp=1
I have a different type of spec because 1) I think Divine Sac combined with /cancelaura is a pretty bad ass cooldown, 2) I really like SoC for trash and quicker kills, and 3) I think pursuit of justice is good for compensating with the otherwise lack of mobility the paladin compared to Feral/Prots. You could probably just copy Ohdyr's prot spec if you want the min/max best spec - but I like mine.
Your spec is very different to others. Do you use judgement and avengers shield on cooldown? Which judgement do you use? Do you ever run low on mana?

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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#149 » Post by Fitzpatrick » 07 Oct 2017 03:10

Judgement, yes. AS, no. I usually use it once per pull and only as needed after that. I usually have to drink only after bosses with very little melee - like the 2nd to last boss in Mech or the demon guy in Ramps, for example. I typical use JoL over JoW.
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#150 » Post by Scen » 07 Oct 2017 03:59

Why don't you use avengers shield? I'm surprised you don't run out of mana more often if you're not using JoW and SoW.

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