Prot pally single target threat

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cts17
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#106 » Post by cts17 » 04 Oct 2017 21:04

What happened to the Shield of the Righteous idea? It'd have the added impact of making BV more important for Prot Paladins.

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jetteroo
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#107 » Post by jetteroo » 04 Oct 2017 21:36

Actually thinking about it, seems like great idea to address single target threat

https://wotlk.evowow.com/?spell=53600 - just rank 1.

Just that not sure how ez to tweak such that a lvl 75 spell can be learnt now at level 70....

The impression I m getting is staff and GMs reluctant to open a can of worms by allowing higher than level 70 spells be learnt by a level 70

Cud be difficult from technical point of view as well.

But cud be the most efficient way to address the issue at hand without tweaking anything else.

For sure it warrants proper testing on PTR.

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Fitzpatrick
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#108 » Post by Fitzpatrick » 04 Oct 2017 21:43

It was tried in testing. It was way too strong.
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jetteroo
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#109 » Post by jetteroo » 04 Oct 2017 21:52

Can't find details on how much Bv contributes to sotr, was comparing shield slam (warriors) to this but again can't find the modifiers of BV to damage for both spells.

If too strong cud be becos of high BV scaling /% to sotr whereas the BV % to shield slam is much lower.

https://wotlk.evowow.com/?spell=30356 (shield slam)

I know this has been discussed before but maybe there's a way to tweak the scaling effect of BV in Sotr to make it less overpowered.

I m just brainstorming here.

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natnat123
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#110 » Post by natnat123 » 04 Oct 2017 23:42

Scen wrote:
04 Oct 2017 08:58
People saying it's off topic or irrelevant seem confused.
not at all, im talking about people who are talking about aoe and other classes ect. i know i talked about other classes. but i was just replying to one of the comments. this thread is about single target, not aoe

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Scen
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#111 » Post by Scen » 05 Oct 2017 02:50

Prot paladins AoE also effects single targets so it is relevant. It's hard to tell who's talking about who here sometimes.

@Jetteroo
I've read all your suggestions and ideas and maths for the thread and it seems like you have talked with the person who will intergrate the changes and how they can do it. Talents won't be changed and Abilties won't be added from what I've heard so far. Other specs shouldn't be effected by the changes. This leaves only 3 things that can possibly be changed and they will effect single target and AoE at the same time and there's no other way around it.

The only three things that can be changed are
Rightous Fury
Holy Shield
Avengers Shield

I've made suggestions in the thread about what I think could be changed about these 3 spells to help.

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jetteroo
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#112 » Post by jetteroo » 05 Oct 2017 07:06

@Scen - having thot hard about it, i think the best way to solve the single target paladin threat in an active rather than passive manner is to probably implement shield of the righteous, if its too strong we can probably nerf the damage by a certain %. Becos its a single target ability/spell

changing AS will affect multiple targets and changing HS will only help passive threat rather than active threat. changing RF will also affect AOE threat...

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Fitzpatrick
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#113 » Post by Fitzpatrick » 05 Oct 2017 14:33

If I wasn't clear before, *Shield of the Righteous* was tested before and found to be too strong. Go on PTR and .learn it and you can see. In just Kara/T4 gear it was doing about 1200 non-crit for very little mana. Thats 400 TPS or more - outpacing everything else in the arsenal by far. Concecrate is ~300 TPS by comparison, which is probably your current top threat ability.
Even if you decide to to try some nerfed version, there is the wider issue that you are ignoring of giving one class a 71+ ability. Lots of classes are asking for these, and it seems hardly fair to give it to one spec over others. Also, Shield of the Righteous is not a prot-only ability. As Scen described, looking outside of your 2 prot-only abilities - Holy Shield and Avenger's Shield - opens up variables that are hard to account for.
If you don't want to listen to me, perhaps you should re-read the start of this very thread, where Flooded stated:
We tested Protection Paladins in the PTR testing and didn't find issues with them. We also considered giving paladins Shield during testing, but found it to be too much.
I think you are also passing right past whether or not this is needed. I feel, perhaps mistakenly, that we have two fresher players discussing needs for a buff without first gearing up well. I honestly don't know who you are Jetteroo, but I think it would be nice to see your character's Armory page. I have yet to see a raiding Prot say there is a need for further buffs after the last round, which I personally felt did the trick in the 5 mans and Kara that I've done. Ohdyr, who's been around a while as a Paladin and is a skilled player, just said that he felt Paladins were OK for the moment.
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Mickiii
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#114 » Post by Mickiii » 05 Oct 2017 16:36

Just a question: What is a "good" Threat per second to be aiming at? For both normals and heroics. That is of course irregardless of class, just a good value to have as a referense..

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jetteroo
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#115 » Post by jetteroo » 05 Oct 2017 19:45

@Fitzpatrick my toon is Noellee and it's been mentioned earlier which you did not pick up.

You been very quick to quote Flooded about prot paladins being ok in PTR as mentioned on 18 jun but did you not also criticise SOV increased dot threat idea as being poorly thought out despite it was also Flooded who announced that? Did you also miss out Anesthesia's test results?

I already mentioned earlier that I found giving Sotr opening a can of worms but it obviously has been deliberated by the staff so it's not like it's not been exactly something horrifying to consider. And as to why I m saying this is the easiest solution is simply becos developers.said tweaking talents would be too tricky. Isn't that what I said earlier? But of course you failed to recognise that and instead just chose to criticise the fact I m revisiting SOTR again.

I would really appreciate if you could read every thing that's been posted, and then make a reply based on what's been discussed so far. It would be far more conducive than criticising specific comments made or quoting comments which have since been superseded with later comments/facts or situations which obviously have changed people's view by now.

So to recap it all and yes if I haven't been clear before either about my views as to why I have been revisiting the topic of SOTR again please read all my earlier comments. Also note that i m also proposing a reduction of RF back to 80% with these changes.

I want to stress that i m in the camp of wanting to make some minor buffs to the prot paladin for single target threat, and i m just throwing ideas around on what is the best way.

in the end my ideas might not be the best way but it would help if everyone can throw in more quantitative facts/data rather than just opinions. e.g. SOTR would increase TPS by 400 outstripping warriors by 200 or something like that hence its a bad idea to add SOTR

didnt notice this specifically before - can it be done afterall?
---edited---
Flooded wrote:
19 Jun 2017 21:13
I'm aware that the talent isn't the strongest, but its possible that the proc rate could be adjusted to bring Paladins up to where warriors are in single target threat.
------
Last edited by jetteroo on 05 Oct 2017 23:28, edited 4 times in total.

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jetteroo
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#116 » Post by jetteroo » 05 Oct 2017 22:57

FWIW i interviewed Holyzone - this is what he said (one of the most geared prot paladins on server)

https://truewow.org/armory/character.ph ... ne&realm=p

1) He says he can maintain 2nd threat behind MTs in raids with help from raid (i assume MDs , hand of salvation on dps etc)
2) He starts off with SOV, AW, Exorcism, Judgement, Consecration and stays there with help from the raid
3) His single target dps is 600-800 dps (assuming 1 boss)

So far it seems like Second and Holyzone are finding it okish, but i dun have any numbers from them in terms of threatps so any more data would be helpful

Assuming what Holyzone says is right, then the idea of using SOV dot threat to boost paladin dps would be good enough for the moment.

I m gonna run more tests on ptr with a fellow tank and see what results i get and post the data.

But having said that remember that RF is 100% not 80% at the moment

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jetteroo
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#117 » Post by jetteroo » 06 Oct 2017 02:03

@ GMs/Admins

I was with Nat123 testing some stuff in PTR. Judgement seems to be bugged at the moment causing too much burst threat on PTR, will have to retest again once its sorted out.

Note that KTM and omen can view burst threat with no details, tankadin tps records average threat like recount/skada and has breakdown
Last edited by jetteroo on 06 Oct 2017 09:21, edited 1 time in total.

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lrctgl
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#118 » Post by lrctgl » 06 Oct 2017 02:17

jetteroo wrote:
05 Oct 2017 22:57

Assuming what Holyzone says is right, then the idea of using SOV dot threat to boost paladin dps would be good enough for the moment.

this would be terrible as it would really hurt rets since they also use that seal

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Scen
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#119 » Post by Scen » 06 Oct 2017 08:15

I think avengers shield should be the thing that gets changed to help. A much lower mana cost and cooldown would be good and increase the threat it generates. A lower mana cost on Holy Shield would help too. Altering seals will affect ret/holy too much as brought up?

Ok so I talked to Alysium whos a geared prot tank in my guild that been raiding as it.
He said he thinks prot is in an okay place currently because prot is okay as an off tank because it's a good AoE tank. He said it was really hard to main tank it against dps check bosses because of the low single target threat generation. He uses Avengers Shield and Holy Shield on cooldown but doesn't use exorcism usually. He normally uses seal of vengeance but switches to wisdom sometimes when he's low on mana. He said he doesn't usually have too many problems with mana but he does use the engineering potion that restores about 2000 mana every 2 mins. He does not use any mana per 5 gear and he only has Int on his weapon. He said that Hold Shield and Avengers sheild were a high mana cost. He agreed that prot pala could do with better single target threat generation.

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Theblomb
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#120 » Post by Theblomb » 06 Oct 2017 11:42

Make a suggestion for a percentage buff/reduction to abilities that seem reasonable based on data you have, otherwise move all this to a discussion forum. My opinion is still that tanks are fine as long as they know how to play their class.

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