Prot pally single target threat

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Dunkelstein
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#151 » Post by Dunkelstein » 07 Oct 2017 04:08

Scen wrote:
07 Oct 2017 02:14
[...]
This is you agreeing that prot pala needs a buff.

You keep bringing up my gear and progress as an arguement that prot doesn't need any help. I am not the only person saying these things and I've talked to other higher geared and more progressed prot paladins saying similar things. You're ignoring the progression/gear of others and targetting me.
Me agreeing that a buff wouldn't hurt does not mean I am agreeing with your points or suggestions. There is a big difference between reducing cooldowns on multi-target abilities and increasing single target damage.

I still don't understand what you mean by me ignoring anyone or what this claim about me "targetting" you is.
I simply didn't like the way you act as if threat was nonexistent for other tanks.
Or the way you act entitled towards the staff for a solution to something that to a lot of people (who you are ignoring) is not a major issue.
Then saying staff is just taking an easy way out even though they are taking part in the discussion.
So I replied once to that and you act like I have always had some sort of agenda against you?

I am not using your lack of gear or progress as a counter argument to the buff discussion. I am just trying to tell you to try it out first. Your only argument in the discussion about whether or not a buff is needed is just that other people say so, while just as many disagree.
No realistic buff could help you in the situation you are in at the moment, which is trying to tank heroics in gear that is just not good enough. You'll have to put in the time to level Mining and/or Blacksmithing, or hope to pick up tank items while joining as DPS or Healer (it's the same for warriors, only they don't even have the option to heal). This is not me attacking you btw.

A short excursion back to topic:
Fitzpatrick wrote:
07 Oct 2017 02:24
Also, my main warlock can fairly easily pull aggro off any tank - especially in AE. That's not a paladin thing, thats a TBC Primal thing.
Exactly what I am trying to say. If DPS wasn't able to ever pull aggro then what would be the point of a threat system in the first place? Even as a Hunter with Misdirection and Feign Death I still have to watch my threat, and I personally prefer Paladins over Warriors by miles in any dungeon I can think of.
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Fitzpatrick
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#152 » Post by Fitzpatrick » 07 Oct 2017 04:12

I didn't say I don't use AS. Its a lot of threat - that'd be pretty silly.

I've told you before that once you get good gear you will be blocking/parrying/dodging enough that you'll have a constant stream of mana. I had mana issues when I was a fresh 70 as well. Thats why I suggested you use Seal of Wisdom and a SP weapon until you get better gear.
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Scen
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#153 » Post by Scen » 07 Oct 2017 05:12

Fitzpatrick wrote:
07 Oct 2017 04:12
I didn't say I don't use AS. Its a lot of threat - that'd be pretty silly.

I've told you before that once you get good gear you will be blocking/parrying/dodging enough that you'll have a constant stream of mana. I had mana issues when I was a fresh 70 as well. Thats why I suggested you use Seal of Wisdom and a SP weapon until you get better gear.
You said you use it once at the start and then "as needed". Define as needed. What about when you raid as off tank and youre not getting hit much? What do you do if youre against a boss with low attack speed or casters?

@Dunkelstein
The main thing I've said in this thread is that paladins need a minor buff to help with threat which is something you agreed with. I also think prot could do with some mana reduction costs on spells. I never said it had to be done my exact way but I haven't seen any other suggestions that either don't affect the other specs or won't be implimented due to technical reasons. The majority of prot paladin abilities affect multiple targets, there's just no way around that. At least Avengers shield only effects 3.
I never said threat was non existant for other tanks.
If I think someone is taking the easy way out or using empty rhetoric I'm going to say so. If you think that makes me entitled then that's like just your opinion man.
You've brought up my gear/experience/skill level far more than once already in this thread. You're not bringing up other people gear/experience/skill you're literally just bringing it up about me over and over. I've got through every heroic I've que'd as tank so far. It's just annoying constantly running out of mana all the time. Every time you respond to me you go on about my gear/progression, you've already said it enough times just stop.
Last edited by Scen on 07 Oct 2017 05:49, edited 1 time in total.

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jetteroo
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#154 » Post by jetteroo » 07 Oct 2017 05:35

@Scen - I think you must have mistaken me for someone else... I looked through the entire threads and nowhere did I mention about either your gear or your skill.... The only points I mentioned specifically to you was about getting str and hit gear and explaining what my rotations are.

And about how I see the mechanics working....

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Scen
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#155 » Post by Scen » 07 Oct 2017 05:49

jetteroo wrote:
07 Oct 2017 05:35
@Scen - I think you must have mistaken me for someone else... I looked through the entire threads and nowhere did I mention about either your gear or your skill.... The only points I mentioned specifically to you was about getting str and hit gear and explaining what my rotations are.

And about how I see the mechanics working....
You are correct, I meant someone else.

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jetteroo
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#156 » Post by jetteroo » 07 Oct 2017 15:29

Dear all I think the original intent of this thread Was to discuss the mechanics and viability of prot paladin threat.

We should focus on the mechanics, which includes numbers and hard data, as well as a breakdown of the threat contributions by the different abilities.

Let’s avoid as much as possible, putting in comments which while could be right, can be construed as subjective.

I will start laying out the framework which I want to base the discussion on:

So while testing Ptr recently, thinking about the discussions on this thread thus far and getting feedback from ppl who play paladin as well as warriors, I been thinking over the threat issues and running some instances after I respecced as well. I play a prot warrior as well , albeit at level 68 only at the moment so that I can experience the different mechanics involved.

1) Tankadin tps and omen/ktm show different things . One is showing threat at that point in time while tankadin tps shows total threat generated/total time.

That could explain why despite lower tps data from tankadin tps, a judgement (esp this) and avenger shield can still generate a decent amount of burst threat but then with a higher CD from both judgement and AS vs warrior abilities coupled with limited mana makes it more important to time it right. So it’s also important for the raid to understand the difference.

Unfortunately the ptr seems to be a bit wonky for judgement so I cannot be sure how much more threat is generated when judgement is cast with full t4 gear.

last night when I was running heroic instances after respeccing to 5 points in seals of pure, the burst threat from judgement was between 500-700 additional tps form omen ( which was around 800-1k), then it dropped back to the normal level.*edited as of 8 Oct*

2) note that while the burst damage is pretty good, the average threat per second generated is still the lowest among all the tank classes (from tankadin tps) the spike threat can go up to 3-4 times the average tps

Another problem comes in if and when you fail to grab Aggro the 1st time u do it, cos by then likely you wud have run Low on mana and the mana regen would be much lower than rage build up vs warrior or feral tanks.

In conclusion:

The problem goes beyond purely adding an ability buffing up (burst) threat, but also understanding how the entire prot paladin class mechanics work.

Tis is why the discussion scope refuses to narrow but instead continues to bring in elements like mana

I can appreciate comments from Nyeriah, Obdyr and Fitz when they say paladin prot threat seems fine.

I can also understand why other prot paladins are struggling as tanks vs warriors.

We all have to understand that at level 70, the classes will be very different vs a wotlk server because blizzard did not intend for end game raids to have classes/specs to be like where we are now as they have been tested at 80 rather than 70.

All I can say is, at the moment prot paladins are not an easy class to play (pls dun bring in the other buffs they bring, not relevant as ret and holy specs can bring those too), but at the same time, buffing them wrongly could end up making them too strong as they are just a little lagging behind other tanking classes.

Based on discussions here so far, I m of the opinion that a significantly nerfed down version of SOTR (changing bv % of SOTR down to what shield slam is or lower? The testing done by Obdyr indicates SOTR as 115% bv+390 rank 1 tested on ptr; shield slam is around 50~%bv + 549~577 tested by Nat, tested on live) is probably the best way to buff in future if we ever get to that.

It will not affect other abilities and specs within the paladin class and only affects single target but at same time we should also consider reducing RF back to 80% along with it as the CD is Low, it will help multi mob threat as well so RF will have to be reduced back to avoid making paladin threat too strong.

Meanwhile I will continue to test paladin threat on ptr, but appreciate if the Admins and Gms can take a Look at judgement in the ptr, the burst threat seems too high.
Last edited by jetteroo on 08 Oct 2017 05:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Fitzpatrick
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#157 » Post by Fitzpatrick » 07 Oct 2017 17:05

You are not listening and keep suggesting the same things over and over so I think I will take my leave here.
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.Watson1988
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#158 » Post by .Watson1988 » 07 Oct 2017 18:24

jetteroo wrote:
07 Oct 2017 15:29

last night when I was running heroic instances after respeccing to 5 points in seals of pure, the burst threat from judgement was between 800-1000k additional tps form omen ( which was around 800-1k), then it dropped back to the normal level.

2) note that while the burst damage is pretty good, the average threat per second generated is still the lowest among all the tank classes (from tankadin tps) the spike threat can go up to 3-4 times the average tps
Why should the damage dealt by consecutive judgements change over time with all other parameters assumed to stay unchanged? That would either be a very unfortunate result of strange interactions in the code or an additional condition (consecutive judgements deal less damage than the first one) must have been added to the code. Sounds both unlikely to me.

And concerning your perception of burst threat: I assume threatmeters use some kind of short term time-weighted moving average (my guess here: equally weighted observations over the last 2 to 3 seconds) to show you some form of slightly smoothed TPS. So once you unleash your judgement every 8 seconds which does tremendous amounts of holy damage which threat gets amplified by RF, it shows you a huge spike on your TPS meter and furthermore at the beginning of the fight a long spike in overall threat on the target (in the beginning total threat is small so adding 1.5k threat is a huge spike) which then fades away.

And concerning your multiple threat spikes in your rotation: your judgement and avengers shield that do massive holy damage and thus threat every 8 and 30 seconds, respectively, are shown as spikes on the TPS meter (remember the moving average) and once those abilities are on cd not that much happens in regard of generated threat for a prot paladin. Missing with those abilities is then of course also a giant threat loss.

A personal empirical anecdote:

I have experienced both Ohdyr and Storm/Itpalas tank Gruul and Kara, and both were most of the time fine in terms of threat. I personally think the current buffs to prot paladins are strong enough for our current raid environment and the hard time for beginner prot paladins stems from insufficient amounts of strength on the early gear (and lack of dodge, parry, and block which yields to lower mana regeneration) and poor choice in selected talents.

I also just watched a stream of Holyzone tanking Prince Malch in Kara and the best dps (around 2.4k dps or so) was at around 66% of total threat. Seems to be a sufficiently big enough gap.

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jetteroo
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#159 » Post by jetteroo » 07 Oct 2017 18:59

.Watson1988 wrote:
07 Oct 2017 18:24
jetteroo wrote:
07 Oct 2017 15:29

last night when I was running heroic instances after respeccing to 5 points in seals of pure, the burst threat from judgement was between 800-1000k additional tps form omen ( which was around 800-1k), then it dropped back to the normal level.

2) note that while the burst damage is pretty good, the average threat per second generated is still the lowest among all the tank classes (from tankadin tps) the spike threat can go up to 3-4 times the average tps
Why should the damage dealt by consecutive judgements change over time with all other parameters assumed to stay unchanged? That would either be a very unfortunate result of strange interactions in the code or an additional condition (consecutive judgements deal less damage than the first one) must have been added to the code. Sounds both unlikely to me.

Wat i meant was - lets say the datum threat level before AS/Judgement is X, wat happens is as judgement is cast. esp judgement, the tps spikes and reverts to the datum level within say 3-4 sec. So i m also comparing burst threat vs average threat (using tankadin tps and omen)

but i want to be clear to make it to everyone is that - as least i was speccing 5 pt seals of pure, i do agree that main tanking is no issue at all (i.e. start off as 1st threat/aggro). As for 2nd threat i will test as ptr for paladins judgement is a bit wonky so i dun have a clear answer on that now, at least at my end.

But take note that Prince is undead, so it could be that certain paladin spells doing double damage. I will refrain from making further comments on what to buff (even though now i m of the camp that perhaps t5 onwards might be a better time) to avoid ppl getting wrong idea of what i m saying when i clearly said in the future....

I will get the test results from ptr up once i can.

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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#160 » Post by Almsivi » 07 Oct 2017 19:32

Hello,

There is so much offtopic here and since censoring it would be unwise as there is much valuable input in those offtopic posts. I'm moving it to Paladin section of forums. Please create new thread with actual suggestion when you feel like it. Topic will remain open.
Feel free to continue brainstorms just don't do it in suggestion forum section.
There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things.
~Niccolo Machiavelli

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Scen
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#161 » Post by Scen » 08 Oct 2017 15:32

Fitzpatrick wrote:
07 Oct 2017 17:05
You are not listening and keep suggesting the same things over and over so I think I will take my leave here.
Shield of the rightgeous and changing the talents keep coming up even though the designers have already said that isn't going to happen. At least that's what some of the earlier posts said anyway. Really the only thing prot needs is very MINOR buffs not major ones. Holy wrath also skews the results because it only works against specific types. Changing paladin's single target only is impossible without affecting AoE so I think that's something that should just be accepted. Making changes to ret/holy because of prot seems unfair.

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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#162 » Post by natnat123 » 08 Oct 2017 15:57

It's allready been said that prot pally won't looked at again until the end of t5. As some have said it's fine with the right spec ect. Might as well lock this never ending discussion and someone can make a new thread come the end of t5 if they still think it needs looking at.

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jetteroo
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#163 » Post by jetteroo » 09 Oct 2017 13:12

Anyway.... If you wanna be the most effective tank currently, go prot warrior. Recommended by Fitzpatrick. Paladins are not and in this current state/patch

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=38325

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Fitzpatrick
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#164 » Post by Fitzpatrick » 09 Oct 2017 14:18

Paladins have been buffed and Revenge nerfed since then, hombre.
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jetteroo
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#165 » Post by jetteroo » 10 Oct 2017 04:57

viewtopic.php?t=38265

Which patch? The one above?

Cos the last paladin buffing patch came out 15 August and your forum thread was 27 Aug. And I didn’t see the thread about warrior revenge being needed

So either I have been sleeping and missed another patch for paladins or someone got the chronological sequence mixed up.

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