Prot pally single target threat

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jetteroo
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#61 » Post by jetteroo » 20 Sep 2017 18:51

Flooded wrote:
18 Sep 2017 05:36
25% increased threat from Seal of Vengeance/Corruption is live on the PTR.

Need to test these threat changes - Please post a screenshot of a 10 minute parse with full raid buffs and consumes while wearing T4 best in slot. Need screenshots of both damage meter break down and threat meter at the end of the fight.
ok i didnt do the full 10 mins, but i have posted screenshots of 4 different situations which are hopefully self explanatory along with t4 gear and talents. If you need more tests done pls let me know

https://www.mediafire.com/file/m8jg1qtb ... Book2.xlsx

observations are...

1) seals of pure... not exciting - increased dps by around 40 dps, tps by 100 (with SOV)
2) SOV accounts for - without seals of pure = around 40% of total tps (534 tps in this experiment)
with sop = 42% of total tps (604 tps in this experiment)

ptr now has the increased threat from sov dots, now i cant really compare with previous

The dilemma we face is:

How do we make buff prot paladin threat such that we dun rely too much on RF (which is at the moment 100% increased threat vs 80% compared to blizz) while making sure we do not either
1) not use >70level abilities
2) talents below the 40 talent point
3) buff abilities that will end up overbuffing holy/ret specs which are at the moment working pretty well at the moment relative to other classes

One suggestion i have is, while fulfilling the conditions above, which might be difficult to implement, buffing some talents towards prot paladin dps, while at the same time, so far down the prot tree that its not practical for other specs to benefit (ret/holy specs will not spec into them)

Hence i suggesting buffing (some or all), and if it seems reasonable to the GMs/developers, we can perhaps look not using RF and SOV buffs to increase paladin threat (i.e. reduce RF back to 80% and not increasing SOV threat buff), and just using actual DPS

1) 5th line - Reckoning (from 2% increased chance per talent point) by 2-3x
2) 6th line - 1 handed specialization (from +4% damage increase per talent point) by 2-3x
3) 9th line - touched by light (from +20% str to SP per talent point) by 1.5 to 2x?

the 3rd suggestion needs deeper thought, as i m not familiar with how much str increases t5 has over t4.

As i mentioned before in my earlier post about paladin spells scaling with strength in wotlk mechanics - lets just take e.g. of consecration which is the highest damage/threat for paladin. I m putting down the calcs as its not as intuitive as the melee damage

https://wotlk.evowow.com/?spell=27173

8*(72+0.04*HolP+0.04*AP) Holy damage over 8 sec to enemies who enter the area = 576+0.32HolP+0.32AP over 8 sec

Lets go back to my e.g. above

"A plate item with 30 str gives prot paladins 30x1.15x1.1 = 38 str. That's equals to 23 spell power. (Factor that into your gearing). 38 str Equals to 76 Attack power. "

With consecration, 576+0.32HolP+0.32AP over 8 sec, with additional 30 str, you get additional 0.32x23+0.32x76
= 7.36 + 24.32 = 31.7 damage over 8 sec - v small

if we increase TOL by 1.5x, that same +30 str plate item wud give you 34.2 sp (0.9*38)

With consecration, 576+0.32HolP+0.32AP over 8 sec, with additional 30 str, you get additional 0.32x34.2+0.32x76
= 10.944 + 24.32 = 35.26 damage over 8 sec - still very small

if we increase TOL by 2.0x, that same +30 str plate item wud give you 45.6 sp (1.2*38)

With consecration, 576+0.32HolP+0.32AP over 8 sec, with additional 30 str, you get additional 0.32x45.6+0.32x76
= 14.59 + 24.32 = 38.91 damage over 8 sec - still not significant

Just some of my thots while running PTR tests and thinking deeper into the feedback from the community

I know it all sounds mathematically very challenging to digest and i apologise for making it sound extremely technical but numbers are what i deal with in real life :P

anyway welcome any thots on what i said, my knowledge on wow is extremely limited to be honest...

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mweldinger
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#62 » Post by mweldinger » 20 Sep 2017 21:13

I would be wary about increasing reckoning. Parry hasted attacks are not inconsequential.

It looks like you came to the same conclusion I did. We don't do enough holy damage to make RF an effective means of threat scaling. This goes back to us missing HotR/SoR which is the major source of scaling holy damage in the 3.3.5 pally kit.

We share too many abilities with ret to be able to buff base ability damage. which leads to a very difficult problem to solve.

I've seen many ideas tossed around:

Shield of righteousness - too op possibly. gives scaling through block value and offers some snap threat.

Possible Solution: Slight nerfs to its scaling if it becomes too obscenely op, not really any different than having to re-adjust RF coefficients each tier

Seal of Vengeance - cant buff base values as ret shares this. possible buffs through reckoning would have to be a LARGE and even then this could possibly be an issue on parry hasted bosses.

Possible Solution: have one handed weapon spec also increase the %weapon damage effect of SoV by 33%/66%/100% per point.

Holy Shield - This ability could just be buffed, but would not help us at all vs casters or slow hitting bosses.

Consecration - Cant buff base values as ret shares this. This is another avenue that could be explored to give us back the "aoe tank" niche pallies had in TBC due to us being the only ones with uncapped aoe. Without Holy Wrath in t5 our aoe tanking is going to go down.

Possible Solution: Have touched by the light increase damage of consecration per point.

Exorcism - Could be made instant, but would just be a weaker, worse scaling SoR with a higher hit cap. also a slight buff for ret.


My recommendation, for what it is worth, would be to give us SoR. ALL of the prot pally issues come down to our entire tanking kit being balanced around having SoR/HotR/divine plea.

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Dreadnought101
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#63 » Post by Dreadnought101 » 20 Sep 2017 23:09

Seems to be the standard specc I have noticed most prot pallies run with, with some deviations here and there

https://truewow.org/armory/talentcalc.p ... ,0&realm=p

I have been messing around with a Vengeance/Reckoning build here.

https://truewow.org/armory/talentcalc.p ... ,0&realm=p

Ive gone from a general 375-425 dps on single target fights to about 450-550 dps and AOE fights have gone up (as long as people dont pull threat early one) and I can manage holding 3 different mobs threat that my dps single target 1400-1700 on each one for testing (or generic heroic runs where I dont bother marking targets).
1) 5th line - Reckoning (from 2% increased chance per talent point) by 2-3x
2) 6th line - 1 handed specialization (from +4% damage increase per talent point) by 2-3x
3) 9th line - touched by light (from +20% str to SP per talent point) by 1.5 to 2x?
I really like the idea from jetteroo to increase 1h damage talent, as that will help get dps and general threat requirements more in line with what we see from warriors and druids, theres no way a ret/holy palladin would invest into this talent even if it increased damage by 50% and so we really have a lot of leg room tuning this 1 talent. We can come back later and tune this talent back down very easily when wrath releases.

Reckoning I would not recommend as much as it can have some applications for PvP as a ret player or even holy player if tuned highly.
I also would not recommend dealing with Touched by Light talent as that can have huge repercussions that we cant see. We already gear prot palladins EXTREMELY differently from what we do from standard tbc play.

Another avenue for threat and aoe tanking is let Holy Wrath affect all targets (without the stun) like they did with cataclysm. Ive always found this spell to be very weird, only giving palladins a specific advantage against a specific mob type, but thats on everyone else if they think this ability would break the overall immersion of a wrath/tbc palladin.
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jetteroo
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#64 » Post by jetteroo » 21 Sep 2017 04:04

Dreadnought and Mweldinger thank you for the discussion.

I would just like to say again that we shouldn't think about wat paladins were like in tbc, because the mechanics on primal are completely different. They are wotlk mechanics.

Why I suggested adjusting touched by light was because my intention was to revert RF back to blizzlike values. So you need to make sure consecration would be "compensated" for it. As you see from my test results, consecration is a big part of the DPS and threat, so we need to be sure that by reverting RF back to 80% we need rebuff consecration for protection paladins ONLY.

Re reckoning, it's a good point I didn't think about PvP, but would any holy or Ret spec bother to spec more than 20 points into prot tree just to get it for PvP?

Also we should also consider how easy or difficult it is to implement these changes as a developer. I m guessing increasing scale values per talent point is easier than tweaking the talents to affect only certain spells?

The feedback on this threat has been great and very informative for me and everyone I hope. Let's keep it going!

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Dreadnought101
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#65 » Post by Dreadnought101 » 21 Sep 2017 13:41

Now that I think about adjusting the 1H weapon, this could also increase prot paladin play in PvP, but thats never been a thing...idk, trying to keep PvP in mind almost feels pointless when the overwhelming majority play PvE and its very unlikly that this would have a significant impact there as well. Reckoning though? Thats significant, as a ret palladin can go for it like they did in vanilla, theres a ston of useful talents a long the way as a ret palladin you arent so much focused on damage as you are utility and tankiness as well, its where the true hybridization comes in, for example.

https://truewow.org/armory/talentcalc.p ... ,0&realm=p

Without going for reckoning you would go for crusader strike/sheat of light by taking out a few talents under toughness and reckoning, but you still need hammer of justice and the utility toughness and stoicism is nice.
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jetteroo
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#66 » Post by jetteroo » 02 Oct 2017 09:41

heard its too complicated to implement any of my suggestions as talents tweaking is complicated. Easiest way to do it is to buff a spell... the only spell i can think of thats deep enough in the prot tree is Avenger's shield. Maybe change the cooldown and the increase the damage. Short of this i cant think of anything else at my end.

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Ohdyr
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#67 » Post by Ohdyr » 02 Oct 2017 10:10

From what I have seen playing / running with prot paladins in heroic's is a lot of people I see having trouble with threat are trying to play it to much like TBC prot when the SP scalings / ratios were a lot different. ie Spell power weapon with horrible damage & Spell power prot gear. Totally neglecting that tanking gear with strength and a High damage weapon is incredibly powerful for threat on a level 70 prot paladin with Woltk talents, I currently use Blazeguard for most of my raid tanking and rarely have threat issues raiding with a lot of t4 bis / near t4 bis DPS. (I am also still in majority pre raid level gear and could use multiple upgrades). As the gear gets better and you can start swapping out some tank items for DPS items threat should take a big leap foward as well.

(There are a few times using a SP weapon is strong for example the PVP SP hammers are great for making up uncrittable for fights you might need to swap in other gear that would otherwise drop you below 5.60% uncritable, but its rare due to the really low damage on most SP weapons on this patch)

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jetteroo
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#68 » Post by jetteroo » 02 Oct 2017 12:30

I again stress - threat is relative. We have to compare vs Warrior and Feral tanks and Paladins are lagging behind in terms of threat whether as OT as MT. There have been 2 sets of test data put up in this thread. The results are not in doubt. Saying its ok doesnt make it viable relative to the other 2 tanking classes. No one is saying that prot paladins are totally useless on threat but the issue is, why bother to use a paladin tank when you have other 2 tank classes/specs way ahead either as OT or MT?

Some peeps were also saying before the buffs - shadow priests and ele shaman and feral dps was ok as well. Well that doesnt mean they are not ok, just not as viable as other classes.

The issue isnt about whether the class is ok by itself but the viability of it vs other classes.

You say its ok but can you post results that contradict the data which Anethesia put up above?

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Fitzpatrick
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#69 » Post by Fitzpatrick » 02 Oct 2017 16:11

That is some retail mentality. If all classes being completely streamlined were a good thing, we'd be playing there and not tbc. I will say 3 things to refute your point:
1) Classes bring more than just pure dps. There is always a reason to bring utility classes even if they are 10% behind to top specs. Paladins bring buffs, auras, hand CDs, even a raid wide -20% damage CD. Ferals bring all sorts of goodies. Regardless of this point, I dont see players getting turned away from raids regardless of spec. If your guild isnt clearing current content, it is because of the players, not because you brought a Prot Pal instead of a 4th Warrior.
2) Paladins will have more than enough fights in the future where they truly excel. The morogrim murlocs will either be a pain in the ass, require tanks on both sides of the boss, or...you can just have a protadin toss a couple FoLs as they spawn and collect them up no problem. A good prot is just flat out worth having.
3) Lastly - and I say this without intending any personal offense - just because your guild or raid team doesnt have a good feral/shadow priest/prot pal or, perhaps more likely, isnt supporting them properly, doesnt mean the whole class needs a buff. I know feral can do fine because Ive seen it with my own eyes. There are reasons why someone may not be succeeding which should be examined first (spec, play, gear choices) before just calling for flat buffs. Ohdyr has pointed out one possibility, for example.

These power creep buffs and PVE nerf calls are making the game a little easy before content has even gone through the first round of health reductions.
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Dunkelstein
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#70 » Post by Dunkelstein » 03 Oct 2017 02:01

Yes, prot paladins generate less threat than warriors.
I have no idea whether threat generation is so low that it's game breaking, buuuuuuuuuuuut
jetteroo wrote:
02 Oct 2017 12:30
The issue isnt about whether the class is ok by itself but the viability of it vs other classes.
No.
As long as it's viable I'd take a reliable paladin to a raid over the guy who generates more threat. Any day.

Decreasing CDs would affect more than just threat as most prot pala abilities have added utilities in them.
Mana cost nerfs and RF buffs sound much better, since the problem here are long fights rather than short bursts of spending all your mana at once (from what I read).

They are called 'Masters of Trash' for a reason in TBC. Holy Shield not generating threat as OT is always going to be a problem. But paladins shine over warriors in other aspects, as stated above. What I haven't seen mentioned yet is that Ardent Defender even let's paladins ignore certain mechanics.
They will always have their niche if played well.

(I am not against any buffs at all though, like I said I don't have a lot of experience in TBC yet)
Aka Funkelstein

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jetteroo
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#71 » Post by jetteroo » 03 Oct 2017 04:36

@Dunkel I would rather have an empty spot in the raid than a totally clueless player in the raid.

Viability has been the discussion for buffs and nerf to specs and classes. That’s the discussion. Else why buff spriests? Becos they bring +hit and vampiric embrace to raid before their buff? Or becos they can buff stamina and spirit? Why bring ele shaman? Simply becos of bloodlust?

But you do raise a good point about changing cooldowns, i m just brainstorming i dun have a better suggestion without tweaking talents. The issue isnt just about mana for paladins, i dun really have issues, the concern i have is about holding threat and as dps gear scales up and about threat generation vs other tanks.

Again we should not talk about TBC at all. Becos this is not a TBC mechanics server. lets all pls stop mentioning TBC. We are effectively using WOTLK mechanics to play older content. So lets stop referring to how classes worked in TBC

@Fitzpatrick This is not retail mentality becos I dun even play retail much. Only played vanilla and spent some time in cata. And I never ever played paladin cos I was horde so i do not have legacy issues to bring to this server regarding paladins at all.

1)We shouldn’t be discussing about whether paladins bring any buffs to the raid, because you can always bring a holy or ret paladin. Simple. The only unique buff a prot paladin brings is the blessing of sanctuary. How exciting is that?

I disagree with your point about bringing 4th warrior instead of Prot paladin. You can always bring holy paladin os prot or ret paladin os prot or watever combo you can think of

2) it’s interesting you point out the Morogrim fight when it hasn’t even been launched? Any data or stream to prove your point?

3) I think to make comments like that about either me or guild isn’t objective. We have enough skilled players around to prove whatever I said is true about spriest and ele shaman or feral or prot paladins.

The fact that spriests , ele shaman and ferals got buffed , plus fact that Anethesia posted data and tbh I would if I wasnt testing other stuff.

Why dun you post data to prove what I say is wrong instead of trying to shoot down every comment I make without hard data?

Easy or hard is subjective. A professional marathon runner would find running 42 km under 3 hours ez. A professional Ironman participant would scoff at most of us tryin to do it.

The Idea of all these discussions to make the roles of each spec and class, as much as possible, able to hold their own in raids. theres no joy in playing a class so that he or she can just cast buffs. Then no one would want to play that class/spec/role. If anyone doesnt yet understand what all these discussions are about, then yes i m very happy to repeat this

And if you think end game content is too easy, you can always nerf your self by wearing greens to the raid. Pretty sure that would make it harder for your raid :)

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natnat123
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#72 » Post by natnat123 » 03 Oct 2017 05:16

Fitzpatrick wrote:
02 Oct 2017 16:11
feral/shadow priest/prot pal
im just gonna point out that we have all three of those, all good players. ferals are fine atm i think, shadow priest im not sure about. all i know is everyone is expected to pull 2.2k dps in T4 gear, havent seen that yet from a shadow priest. seen 1.9k max. if you can find one that does 2.2k dps throughout a whole fight in 25 mans, then please point them out. i would like to see what they are doing to get that

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Scen
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#73 » Post by Scen » 03 Oct 2017 05:47

I haven't done raiding here as prot yet but i've been having serious mana problems with prot all the way through leveling and now still in heroics. I imagine this is a similar problem for raiders. Also holy shield almost always end's with at least half of the procs still ready on it. I've read all the posts in this thread so far and if you can't change any talent points and you don't want to affect holy or ret then theres only a few things you can change, these being holy shield and avengers shield.

I have two possible suggestions for holy shield changes due to it constantly expiring with at least half charges unless you have at least 5 mobs pulled. Lowering the mana cost a bit will help too.
Holy shield
Option A: Increased duration by 6 seconds.
Option B: 2 charges removed (out of 8) and damage increased by 25%

The only thing you can really do with avengers shield is lower the mana cost and increase the damage. If you lower the cooldown without lowering the mana cost by a lot then you'll just run oom even faster.

Also I hate that holy wrath only works on undead and demons, would it be possible to make so only the stun part of it effected undead and demons? Although this would effect both ret and holy.

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jetteroo
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#74 » Post by jetteroo » 03 Oct 2017 06:12

one more thing to add as kindly pointed out by Natnat - this thread is a discussion about SINGLE TARGET THREAT - so please focus on single target threat and stop talking about AOE threat or whatnot.

If you want to comment about AOE threat etc pls start another thread

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Ohdyr
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#75 » Post by Ohdyr » 03 Oct 2017 07:23

does anyone have actual single target threat tests on the live primal server in a 10/25 man raid with a rounded comp and not just some PTR test that you could be missing raid buffs/totems/consumes/sharpening stones or oils/Passive buffs from other classes talents with the prot paladin in the hands of multiple good pilots that are used to playing the Primal TBC prot paladin?

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