Prot pally single target threat
Re: Prot pally single target threat
tbh, prot pala and feral druid threat is just a joke compared to warrior. especially aoe threat and especially in heroics.
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Anesthesia
- Former Staff
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- Joined: 04 Mar 2016 07:30
Re: Prot pally single target threat
Righteous Fury was already modified to increase threat from holy damage by 100% instead of 80% as the tooltip says (I dont think this was publicly announced, but I could be wrong), mana cost of Avenger's Shield and Consecration was reduced mainly so players dont fear to spam them while tanking 1 target and attempting to build aggro as an off tank, hopefully this will help out.
For ferals, Maul is still their main ability, Mangle is not as good as it should be, and adding Lacerate to your single target rotation is not much of a difference threat wise compared to Swipe as a filler.
Both Mangle and Lacerate could be buffed in the future, reason for this would be to give feral tanks a proper rotation.
Same goes for RF, if it is needed it could be increased again, its seems that is the safest way to buff paladin threat.
For ferals, Maul is still their main ability, Mangle is not as good as it should be, and adding Lacerate to your single target rotation is not much of a difference threat wise compared to Swipe as a filler.
Both Mangle and Lacerate could be buffed in the future, reason for this would be to give feral tanks a proper rotation.
Same goes for RF, if it is needed it could be increased again, its seems that is the safest way to buff paladin threat.
No one can see what's in my pocket.
Re: Prot pally single target threat
Yes Anesthesia I agree with RF method. But also consider reducing CD of avenger shield. cos in Kara bosses and some trash mobs not tauntable, so without both RF buff and AS cd adjustment, prot pallies are in for a lot of trouble even for trash.
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Nyeriah
Re: Prot pally single target threat
If you're going to make the class completely custom then I don't really think you're heading towards the right direction. Far too many changes were applied to make it work already.
Re: Prot pally single target threat
i agree on mangle and lacerate @ ana, but swipe is also too low imho, tanking heroics is a pain as feral druid. while warriors do a lot more ae threat.
Re: Prot pally single target threat
@nyeriah I do not like to change too many things or make it too custom as well, but let's remember that primal wow is unique - that's a major selling point for people to play Vs other servers.
Blizzard never expected balances for classes to happen at level 70 for wotlk, so inevitably we need to think about how to tweak things to not just "force" players to play in a certain manner
As it is right now, a pally tank is rather ineffective, even more so than bear tank due to severe threat issues - ESP when the DPS of the group (gearing) scales up with better gear.
Again my idea is same as @Anesthesia - tweak in the least intrusive way in order to make it such that while prot pallies might not be on par with prot warriors, at least the gap is reduced to small one.
Currently prot paladins just cannot tank effectively. They definitely cant offtank becos without the threat from blocking from holy shield+RF, threat is extremely low even after casting Avengers shield, which has a CD of 30 sec, along with exorcism (15s) .
I m happy to include a GM in any heroic run that I tank in with some of my guild mates who are pretty well geared as DPS to provide proof of this.
Blizzard never expected balances for classes to happen at level 70 for wotlk, so inevitably we need to think about how to tweak things to not just "force" players to play in a certain manner
As it is right now, a pally tank is rather ineffective, even more so than bear tank due to severe threat issues - ESP when the DPS of the group (gearing) scales up with better gear.
Again my idea is same as @Anesthesia - tweak in the least intrusive way in order to make it such that while prot pallies might not be on par with prot warriors, at least the gap is reduced to small one.
Currently prot paladins just cannot tank effectively. They definitely cant offtank becos without the threat from blocking from holy shield+RF, threat is extremely low even after casting Avengers shield, which has a CD of 30 sec, along with exorcism (15s) .
I m happy to include a GM in any heroic run that I tank in with some of my guild mates who are pretty well geared as DPS to provide proof of this.
Re: Prot pally single target threat
im gonna have to chime in here i tanked karazhan yesterday as the ot as a paladin with no issues at all. moroes and opera was not a problem and attumen was cake aswell so all in all i think paladins are fine with the nerfs to manacost and the increased Rightous fury threat increase
Re: Prot pally single target threat
Hey Guys,
The original buff of RF threat being changed from 80% to 100% was with a view to T4 being pretty huge for Protadins.
A lot of the Pre-BIS and Heroic gear tends to lack STR for STR>Spell Power conversion which can make Heroics with little gear feel pretty bad to tank without a little time to get aggro.
The fear with going overboard on the RF buff, is once 4 Set T4 is acquired we didnt want threat to be a total non-issue for Paladins who have got some pretty good gear(read not that paladin threat should still suck). T4 is worth ~160 spell power(napkin math please dont shoot) plus a pretty big seal damage buff.
I'd argue that warrior threat being so high makes Paladin look worse than it actually is, in that people dont bother watching threat and assume that warrior is how it should be.
Anyway, to ask a question back what would you set the RF modifer to? To keep it balanced both Early at level 70 and Late into raiding?
The original buff of RF threat being changed from 80% to 100% was with a view to T4 being pretty huge for Protadins.
A lot of the Pre-BIS and Heroic gear tends to lack STR for STR>Spell Power conversion which can make Heroics with little gear feel pretty bad to tank without a little time to get aggro.
The fear with going overboard on the RF buff, is once 4 Set T4 is acquired we didnt want threat to be a total non-issue for Paladins who have got some pretty good gear(read not that paladin threat should still suck). T4 is worth ~160 spell power(napkin math please dont shoot) plus a pretty big seal damage buff.
I'd argue that warrior threat being so high makes Paladin look worse than it actually is, in that people dont bother watching threat and assume that warrior is how it should be.
Anyway, to ask a question back what would you set the RF modifer to? To keep it balanced both Early at level 70 and Late into raiding?
Re: Prot pally single target threat
two things:
first, i agree that paladin and druid threat pre BIS or pre raid might seem too low, because warrior (especially aoe) threat is so ridiculos high, so dps classes they start damaging right away. but anyway, feral druid swipe aoe threat really sucks, also because bears don't get a lot of rage in heroics with a lot of casters and mobs that use a lot of abilities like fear, MC etc. things are usually fine in melee heavy dungeons like SHH. paladins have an advantage here, they can just use their spells and set the consecration without having to worry of getting instantly hit by a lot of mobs to fill up their rage bar, altho they need to drink after mob grps, but that is really something completely different. well and warriors like mentioned above, their aoe threat is just insane. i think it would help to increase swipe threat a bit. while i don't think single target threat is really an issues for bears, i can understand what anastasiya wrote about mangle and lacerate. atm. they are pretty useless and maybe not doing the treat they should, making those abilities kinda pointless or not as good as they should be. also some people think that bear tanks are too squishy (some officer in my guild said that a while ago for example) giving them a bit more armor might maybe help.
about costum changes and stuff: jettero wrote it really good here, primal wow is anything but blizzlike. wotlk client was never balanced for lvl 70 content. we are missing the last few talents in the trees and also glyphs. if we had that, the situation would be different maybe. well we have to deal with it and in my opinion it also makes sense that we do not have those things. but that kinda leaves a lot of classes and talent trees "unfinished" and unbalanced. YOUR job as staff, developers or whatever is to make classes and specs balanced as good as possible due to those changes. kurthos wrote in tester forum some time ago, that you guys do not want to make the same mistake as in vanilla phase again. that some classes and specs are not being played because they are too weak compared to others or not viable at all. so plz, stick to that promise and do something about it. it is not about overtuning stuff and making everything ultra costum. we want and we deserve classes and specs that are ALMOST EQUALLY and viable so that they are actually fun to play and not just buff bitches. this includes feral bears, disc priests, prot paladins, ele shamans, shadow priests. in my opinion, shadow priests and elemental shamans still struggle to much with mana. i was with an almost full pre raid BIS shadowpriest alt in kara, we had full caster support and replenishment. on romeo and juliet i was oom after 2nd of 3 phases of that fight, altho i received a mana tide AND an innervate. i even used the dire maul drink, mana potion, dark rune. and like i said, i had retri pala replenishment, my own one, all big buffs + caster support. whatever you tell me, you cant convince me that this is not a problem. the only options would be to wear onyxia mp5 trinket and one mindtap. is this really how it should be?
first, i agree that paladin and druid threat pre BIS or pre raid might seem too low, because warrior (especially aoe) threat is so ridiculos high, so dps classes they start damaging right away. but anyway, feral druid swipe aoe threat really sucks, also because bears don't get a lot of rage in heroics with a lot of casters and mobs that use a lot of abilities like fear, MC etc. things are usually fine in melee heavy dungeons like SHH. paladins have an advantage here, they can just use their spells and set the consecration without having to worry of getting instantly hit by a lot of mobs to fill up their rage bar, altho they need to drink after mob grps, but that is really something completely different. well and warriors like mentioned above, their aoe threat is just insane. i think it would help to increase swipe threat a bit. while i don't think single target threat is really an issues for bears, i can understand what anastasiya wrote about mangle and lacerate. atm. they are pretty useless and maybe not doing the treat they should, making those abilities kinda pointless or not as good as they should be. also some people think that bear tanks are too squishy (some officer in my guild said that a while ago for example) giving them a bit more armor might maybe help.
about costum changes and stuff: jettero wrote it really good here, primal wow is anything but blizzlike. wotlk client was never balanced for lvl 70 content. we are missing the last few talents in the trees and also glyphs. if we had that, the situation would be different maybe. well we have to deal with it and in my opinion it also makes sense that we do not have those things. but that kinda leaves a lot of classes and talent trees "unfinished" and unbalanced. YOUR job as staff, developers or whatever is to make classes and specs balanced as good as possible due to those changes. kurthos wrote in tester forum some time ago, that you guys do not want to make the same mistake as in vanilla phase again. that some classes and specs are not being played because they are too weak compared to others or not viable at all. so plz, stick to that promise and do something about it. it is not about overtuning stuff and making everything ultra costum. we want and we deserve classes and specs that are ALMOST EQUALLY and viable so that they are actually fun to play and not just buff bitches. this includes feral bears, disc priests, prot paladins, ele shamans, shadow priests. in my opinion, shadow priests and elemental shamans still struggle to much with mana. i was with an almost full pre raid BIS shadowpriest alt in kara, we had full caster support and replenishment. on romeo and juliet i was oom after 2nd of 3 phases of that fight, altho i received a mana tide AND an innervate. i even used the dire maul drink, mana potion, dark rune. and like i said, i had retri pala replenishment, my own one, all big buffs + caster support. whatever you tell me, you cant convince me that this is not a problem. the only options would be to wear onyxia mp5 trinket and one mindtap. is this really how it should be?
Re: Prot pally single target threat
Let's also not forget that the responsibility of threat management does not fall to the tank alone.
Ofc you will lose threat as a tank if your dps goes full out on a random target, this is the case even for prot warriors. I'd say that every tank class is fine threatwise as it is, as long as your group understand how the mechanics of this game actually works.
If a dps steals threat from you it is actually highly likely that the tank is not to blame
Just my 2 cents.
Ofc you will lose threat as a tank if your dps goes full out on a random target, this is the case even for prot warriors. I'd say that every tank class is fine threatwise as it is, as long as your group understand how the mechanics of this game actually works.
If a dps steals threat from you it is actually highly likely that the tank is not to blame
Just my 2 cents.
Re: Prot pally single target threat
i agree with you Mr. Blomb, but that is like telling a nymphomaic that you won't go to your next date without pants on XD
still, the threat of the 3 tank classes is far away from being balanced in my opinion
still, the threat of the 3 tank classes is far away from being balanced in my opinion
Re: Prot pally single target threat
I thank everyone for the comments and discussion. I m glad to get the discussion going to revitalise topics so that we can make primal wow better. Believe all of us are chipping in with ideas so that we can make this server great.
@thebomb - I agree with respect to DPS - my other spec is DPS so I know what u mean. But Kara bosses have so much hp with a timer it's always forcing DPS to go all out
@irctgl - when you say u were offtanking moroes - did u mean u were tanking moroes directly from the start? Or were you able to maintain 2nd threat on Moroes while not actually tanking him? Was your main tank a warrior? Last week I was partnering with a bear tank who was less geared than me on Moroes encounter and I was even struggling to get back threat!
As for opera when you say offtanking I assume you mean you were tanking one of them directly (romulo/Julianne). Plus they use fast attacks so the faster they attack the more threat you generate Vs them with holy shield. Big but slow hitters will cause issues.
As I mentioned earlier - maintaining threat while tanking directly isn't such a big issue. Holy shield gives you plenty of threat. It's when you need to get threat back from bosses from another tank without taunting that's the issue
@storm - I think you might have hit the nail on the head. Warrior threat is just amazing at the moment, making non warrior offtanks look bad. A warrior tank can easily outthreat a paladin tank even with lower gear.
But you raise a good point - maybe changing RF itself isn't the best idea. In wotlk pallies had sotr and hotr as part of the threat rotation. At the moment in primal they do not.
If we go in that direction then buffing one of the pally threat spells is the answer to avoid t4 threat overbuff. Maybe increase threat from Avengers shield? Although I do not know if that's possible without increasing the damage not to make it overpowered.
@thebomb - I agree with respect to DPS - my other spec is DPS so I know what u mean. But Kara bosses have so much hp with a timer it's always forcing DPS to go all out
@irctgl - when you say u were offtanking moroes - did u mean u were tanking moroes directly from the start? Or were you able to maintain 2nd threat on Moroes while not actually tanking him? Was your main tank a warrior? Last week I was partnering with a bear tank who was less geared than me on Moroes encounter and I was even struggling to get back threat!
As for opera when you say offtanking I assume you mean you were tanking one of them directly (romulo/Julianne). Plus they use fast attacks so the faster they attack the more threat you generate Vs them with holy shield. Big but slow hitters will cause issues.
As I mentioned earlier - maintaining threat while tanking directly isn't such a big issue. Holy shield gives you plenty of threat. It's when you need to get threat back from bosses from another tank without taunting that's the issue
@storm - I think you might have hit the nail on the head. Warrior threat is just amazing at the moment, making non warrior offtanks look bad. A warrior tank can easily outthreat a paladin tank even with lower gear.
But you raise a good point - maybe changing RF itself isn't the best idea. In wotlk pallies had sotr and hotr as part of the threat rotation. At the moment in primal they do not.
If we go in that direction then buffing one of the pally threat spells is the answer to avoid t4 threat overbuff. Maybe increase threat from Avengers shield? Although I do not know if that's possible without increasing the damage not to make it overpowered.
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Anesthesia
- Former Staff
- Posts: 180
- Joined: 04 Mar 2016 07:30
Re: Prot pally single target threat
With T4 druid tanks should sit at almost 20.000 unbuffed armor, which is about 3k more than what warriors and paladins have, while druids lack block ability, Savage Defense is essentially the same mechanic and it gives better results while tanking non dual wielding bosses, in any other situation shield bearing tanks should have the advantage of mitigating slightly more damage
It is because of Shield Block ability that warriors appear tankier during trash pulls, but on the longer fights (when CDs are not ticking while out of combat) damage mitigated should be about the same.
Another thing that works against druids is their high chance to dodge (as one avoidance mechanic) and a high chance to be hit, while warriors and paladins have Parry and Block on the same roll, they dont, which can lead to spikes in damage taken.
Keep in mind that druids have higher chance to self heal trough Improved Leader of The pack, one of their defensive cooldowns heals you for up to 30% of your maximum health and the game offers a perfect solution for aoe situations --> https://truewow.org/armory/item.php?item=28774&realm=p
This means that even if the damage taken is slightly higher, healing required will be about the same, or even lower for druids in AoE.
I agree that all of the classes should be playable, but they should also be different. If the shadow priest problem can be solved trough different style of gearing I dont see a reason why we should change anything. This was already discussed on the tester forums, and only feedback with data to back it up showed that shadow priest even with mana problems dealt about the same damage as other casters. Primal offers a place for players to experience and play trough the old content in a different way, and if needed it should be up to players to be creative and find new ways to play the same claas. If that is not possible, then and only if necessary staff should implement balancing changes to classes.
It is because of Shield Block ability that warriors appear tankier during trash pulls, but on the longer fights (when CDs are not ticking while out of combat) damage mitigated should be about the same.
Another thing that works against druids is their high chance to dodge (as one avoidance mechanic) and a high chance to be hit, while warriors and paladins have Parry and Block on the same roll, they dont, which can lead to spikes in damage taken.
Keep in mind that druids have higher chance to self heal trough Improved Leader of The pack, one of their defensive cooldowns heals you for up to 30% of your maximum health and the game offers a perfect solution for aoe situations --> https://truewow.org/armory/item.php?item=28774&realm=p
This means that even if the damage taken is slightly higher, healing required will be about the same, or even lower for druids in AoE.
I agree that all of the classes should be playable, but they should also be different. If the shadow priest problem can be solved trough different style of gearing I dont see a reason why we should change anything. This was already discussed on the tester forums, and only feedback with data to back it up showed that shadow priest even with mana problems dealt about the same damage as other casters. Primal offers a place for players to experience and play trough the old content in a different way, and if needed it should be up to players to be creative and find new ways to play the same claas. If that is not possible, then and only if necessary staff should implement balancing changes to classes.
No one can see what's in my pocket.
Re: Prot pally single target threat
I admit that I haven't read every post in this subject, I just wanna put my thoughts out there.
It feels to me that people suggest buffs for tanks to make threat more manageable, however, threat in vanilla and tbc, from what I know, was harder to manage than in wotlk. You may argue that certain classes feel less powerful than other, such will pretty much always be the case, you can't possibly have everyone at exactly equal footing.
I have raided T4 content every week now since it was released, where I have seen warrior, druid and paladin tanks in action and I feel that they all work efficiently enough, also in the case where they build threat without being attacked. As lrctgl pointed out, he tanked adds on Moroes and was able to stay 2nd on threat on Moroes after the adds were dead, with threat management from our dps (feign death + vanish).
As I mentioned earlier, threat management is supposed to be a cooperative responsibility, and saying that you can't expect dps to hold back because herp derp big numbers, which defines a bad dps, the same could be said about tanks that have no idea how to build threat properly.
So what I wanna say is: I have seen tanks of each class work fine in a raiding environment, sure we can get down to numbers and argue how much should be buffed, but I'd first and foremost encourage people to pay more attention to how the game is supposed to be played as long as there is a threat mechanic.
It feels to me that people suggest buffs for tanks to make threat more manageable, however, threat in vanilla and tbc, from what I know, was harder to manage than in wotlk. You may argue that certain classes feel less powerful than other, such will pretty much always be the case, you can't possibly have everyone at exactly equal footing.
I have raided T4 content every week now since it was released, where I have seen warrior, druid and paladin tanks in action and I feel that they all work efficiently enough, also in the case where they build threat without being attacked. As lrctgl pointed out, he tanked adds on Moroes and was able to stay 2nd on threat on Moroes after the adds were dead, with threat management from our dps (feign death + vanish).
As I mentioned earlier, threat management is supposed to be a cooperative responsibility, and saying that you can't expect dps to hold back because herp derp big numbers, which defines a bad dps, the same could be said about tanks that have no idea how to build threat properly.
So what I wanna say is: I have seen tanks of each class work fine in a raiding environment, sure we can get down to numbers and argue how much should be buffed, but I'd first and foremost encourage people to pay more attention to how the game is supposed to be played as long as there is a threat mechanic.
Re: Prot pally single target threat
Irctgl hasn't replied to my post - so we still do not know how exactly he tanked and who was the main tank and how exactly his tanking mechanics work.
Did he take aggro from Moroes 1st ? Then swap? That's a big difference Vs just going for Moroes threat after tanking adds.
While i do agree with you saying not classes are equal and not meant to be, but I would not agree with you on 3 things:
1) is your experience representative of the experience of the majority? Or just in your group/guild?
2) tbc and vanilla being harder for threat than on wotlk. What is our PW server? Wotlk? Or tbc? If I wanted to play tbc mechanics I would have played a tbc server and not primal wow.
Pretty sure most of us want to play wotlk mechanics on old content i.e. quests, raids etc
That's the objective of primalwow.
So now saying this is tbc, not wotlk , pls get real -isn't exactly addressing the issue nor in line with the direction of the server.
2) I agree with you about threat being a group responsibility, but then lets think about the point I mentioned above - the mechanics/talent choices for every DPS isn't the same as tbc in the 1st place!
Going back again to your point about vanilla and tbc being different.
We need to remember that raid/instance bosses here are massively buffed on hp . Shaffar? Curator? With "enrage" timers - so DPS have to go all out. This isn't how exactly blizzard meant to balance the game - they tried to balance the raids taking into consideration everything, so it's not exactly an apples for apples comparison.
I know it's a tricky situation to balance here on primal wow and everything here has been a pleasant experience so far for most people , but when we do balance classes , mechanics etc we need to think about the balancing objective.
Do we want to tweak things towards a direction of a wotlk server or tbc or vanilla? And what is the balance between the classes for the same role (DPS/tanks/healer)? Would a certain tweak overpower a class? Or would it help balance and encourage ppl.to play a certain role.of a class?
Or would we prefer every class go back to old scheme in tbc/vanilla where there is no dual spec, every class has a very specific role in a raid?
These are all questions we all, testers , developers, players should think about to make a game better.
I m not saying let's jump into it, but I think the title merits due consideration if I think about the reasons I mentioned above. Or just bin it if we are happy to keep it purely tbc.
Did he take aggro from Moroes 1st ? Then swap? That's a big difference Vs just going for Moroes threat after tanking adds.
While i do agree with you saying not classes are equal and not meant to be, but I would not agree with you on 3 things:
1) is your experience representative of the experience of the majority? Or just in your group/guild?
2) tbc and vanilla being harder for threat than on wotlk. What is our PW server? Wotlk? Or tbc? If I wanted to play tbc mechanics I would have played a tbc server and not primal wow.
Pretty sure most of us want to play wotlk mechanics on old content i.e. quests, raids etc
That's the objective of primalwow.
So now saying this is tbc, not wotlk , pls get real -isn't exactly addressing the issue nor in line with the direction of the server.
2) I agree with you about threat being a group responsibility, but then lets think about the point I mentioned above - the mechanics/talent choices for every DPS isn't the same as tbc in the 1st place!
Going back again to your point about vanilla and tbc being different.
We need to remember that raid/instance bosses here are massively buffed on hp . Shaffar? Curator? With "enrage" timers - so DPS have to go all out. This isn't how exactly blizzard meant to balance the game - they tried to balance the raids taking into consideration everything, so it's not exactly an apples for apples comparison.
I know it's a tricky situation to balance here on primal wow and everything here has been a pleasant experience so far for most people , but when we do balance classes , mechanics etc we need to think about the balancing objective.
Do we want to tweak things towards a direction of a wotlk server or tbc or vanilla? And what is the balance between the classes for the same role (DPS/tanks/healer)? Would a certain tweak overpower a class? Or would it help balance and encourage ppl.to play a certain role.of a class?
Or would we prefer every class go back to old scheme in tbc/vanilla where there is no dual spec, every class has a very specific role in a raid?
These are all questions we all, testers , developers, players should think about to make a game better.
I m not saying let's jump into it, but I think the title merits due consideration if I think about the reasons I mentioned above. Or just bin it if we are happy to keep it purely tbc.
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