Prot pally single target threat

[jetteroo]

@storm - if prot paladins only using jow, and if you dun get.hit and getting mana from Bo sanc you oom v quick.

Hence if u dun get mana from Bos ,only way to get some mana is via seal of wisdom, and even then it's meh but better than nothing. Cos unlike warriors who generate quite a bit of rage from hitting, even though rage generation might not be fast, at least it comes back. For protection paladins, you are stuck in a vicious cycle. You dun get aggro, ur mana dropping, do you change to sow to get mana or stick to sov to get more threat hoping u get aggro back? At the same time, if you dun get hit, healers won't bother to cast heals on you so u dun get mana back from spiritual attunement - you catch the drift ....

This is why I say on untauntable mobs, it's very bad for protection paladins becos we have 2 taunts which are very powerful but if they dun work it's a big blow.

@anesthesia I thank you so much the time spent on testing, really appreciate it. Surprised that consecration does more threat per sec than AS - probably due to lower cooldown whereas avenger shield more burst damage.

For those who look at the protection paladin spell power stat - a decent percentage comes from strength (talent in prot tree)

I just want to stress that since revamped talent trees in wotlk, paladins should be gearing towards strength. With talents and blessing of kings of sanctuary, you get another 2.65 points of strength per 10 points (1 x 1.15 x 1.1 = 1.265). Becos while you only get 60% sp from strength , your auto attacks and most of your threat spells like consecration, exorcism, avengers shield also scale up with both spellpower and attack power (equal weightage, according to wotlk.evowow), which for paladins you get effectively 2.5ap (after talents) for every point of strength. Hence battle shout and blessing of might is important for prot paladins to increase threat.

Let me give you an idea of numbers. A plate item with 30 str gives prot paladins 30x1.15x1.1 = 38 str. That's equals to 23 spell power. (Factor that into your gearing). 38 str Equals to 76 Attack power.

So for exorcism, scaling of 15% from ap and sp gives you, 23 x 0.15 + 76 x 0.15 (as per wotlk Evo)=3.5+11.5 =15 extra damage. Now if you purely had replaced that str gear with spell power gear you would need 15/0.15 = 100 spellpower!

Let's run for a spell with lower scaling. Avengers shield. 0.07% scaling. 23 x0.07 + 76 x 0.07 = 1.6 +5.3 = 6.9 extra damage. If you had used spell powergear vs str gear u need 6.9/0.07= 98.6 spell power.

Hence we can see why we shouldn't gear spellpower over strength unless the spellpower is 3.3 times more than the strength. And I haven't even counted the loss of threat from auto attacks due to melee weapons having higher dps !

This is why I only change to sp weapons to cast avenger shield and exorcism, becos the increased damage from a sp weapon outweighs that from a strength from a melee weapon by 3.3 times and I haven't started melee attacks.

Re tanking numbers from Anesthesia - Those who familiar with tanking can see from the numbers the point i was making earlier.

For AOE tanking, unfortunately feral bear swipe wasn't tested so can't compare but from data you can see revenge+thunderclap is much more powerful for aoe threat compared to consecration/holy shield (I sort of discounted AS at the moment cos a 30 sec cd won't help much and you can see the TPS is low even though the burst damage is decent). If I dare make a bold assumption on swipe and feral bear AOE threat I think they won't lose out to paladins.

For single tanking, let's not even bother to discuss further. The numbers in the spreadsheet speak for themselves.

[Flooded]

25% increased threat from Seal of Vengeance/Corruption is live on the PTR.

Need to test these threat changes - Please post a screenshot of a 10 minute parse with full raid buffs and consumes while wearing T4 best in slot. Need screenshots of both damage meter break down and threat meter at the end of the fight.

[jetteroo]

25% increased threat from Seal of Vengeance/Corruption is live on the PTR.

Need to test these threat changes - Please post a screenshot of a 10 minute parse with full raid buffs and consumes while wearing T4 best in slot. Need screenshots of both damage meter break down and threat meter at the end of the fight.

hi Flooded - can i understand the 25% increase is BEFORE talents enhancement or AFTER? (i.e. based spell/seal)

Thank you

[Eronox]

25% increased threat from Seal of Vengeance/Corruption is live on the PTR.

Need to test these threat changes - Please post a screenshot of a 10 minute parse with full raid buffs and consumes while wearing T4 best in slot. Need screenshots of both damage meter break down and threat meter at the end of the fight.

hi Flooded - can i understand the 25% increase is BEFORE talents enhancement or AFTER? (i.e. based spell/seal)

Thank you

threat generated through the DoTs they apply

[jetteroo]

@Eronox - "threat generated through the DoTs they apply'. ie. it means it only affects Holy Vengeance DOT damage and not judgement damage portion?

The reason i m asking is - both Judgements of the Pure and Seals of the Pure will affect Seal of Vengeance - so i want to know if these talents, with them increasing the damage on Seal of Vengeance, will also affect this 25% increase (i.e. is it 25% or 15% multiplied by the 25% i.e. 1.25 OR 1.15 X 1.25?)

I assume the unleashing of the seal i.e. via judgement portion will not see any increase in threat as a result of this.

https://wotlk.evowow.com/?spell=31801

[Dreadnought101]

Will this also be applied to Seal of Righteousness? I find it helpful in getting immediate threat up time and I also run a build that doesnt use seal of command (oh the heresy?)...and maybe seal of wisdom/light as i remember leveling prot using mostly wisdom in dungeons because jesusthemanaissueswhileleveling

[Storm]

25% increased threat from Seal of Vengeance/Corruption is live on the PTR.

Nice, thanks Flooded. I assume this won't affect Rets using SoV?

@Eronox - "threat generated through the DoTs they apply'. ie. it means it only affects Holy Vengeance DOT damage and not judgement damage portion?

I'd assume it will just be the DoT portion. so say 1 tick used to be worth 100 TPS, it will now be worth 125. Making any talents that buff SoV damage very good for sustained threat. The judgement threat might be difficult to tie to just prot and not affect ret (without buffing RF again) so not sure thats possible, devs pls?

Will this also be applied to Seal of Righteousness? I find it helpful in getting immediate threat up time and I also run a build that doesnt use seal of command (oh the heresy?)...and maybe seal of wisdom/light as i remember leveling prot using mostly wisdom in dungeons because jesusthemanaissueswhileleveling

Changing the threat values on wis/light probably wont be easy to do because they dont really inflict anything. Is SoR really that much stronger than SoV at 70 for snap threat?

As a fellow protadin quester, i hear your pain with blue rage but that is probably outside the scope of these changes.

Protadins for MTs!
Storm/Itburns

[Fitzpatrick]

1) is your experience representative of the experience of the majority? Or just in your group/guild?

There are still quirks to Paladin tanking that make things interesting on some fights (i.e. - requires mob to be attacking you and vulnerable to silence mechanics) that wont be fixed until 71+ abilities. However, as of now, Paladin tanks are much better than in 2.x TBC and the move to 100% RF has made them just fine for almost all encounters.

Their single target threat gen is a bit weaker than a warrior or druid's, but their AE threat gen is better than both and is even borderline OP in parts of Kara.

Edit - apparently I necrod this a bit. It thought it was the last comment. MB

[jetteroo]

Kara is not representative becos its mainly undead. theoretically speaking with double damage on holy wrath and exorcism if paladin threat still not close to tops of the 3 tanks then they are in trouble

IPlease also see Anethesia's test results on PTR above, surprisingly that on aoe abilities paladin's tps wasnt as great as expected vs warriors... but i will go on ptr these 2 days to test different encounters

[mweldinger]

Kara is not representative becos its mainly undead. theoretically speaking with double damage on holy wrath and exorcism if paladin threat still not close to tops of the 3 tanks then they are in trouble

IPlease also see Anethesia's test results on PTR above, surprisingly that on aoe abilities paladin's tps wasnt as great as expected vs warriors... but i will go on ptr these 2 days to test different encounters

This all comes back to my earlier posts about our lack of scaling due to coefficient changes in 3.0 patch and missing SoR/HotR. It isnt just our threat, you can buff threat coefficients and buff RF, but at the end of the day we do basically the same damage in t4 gear as we do in full t6 as a result.

Going from t4 to t6 and not seeing any real improvement in damage isnt fun, and is one of the reasons I quit my prot pally.

[jetteroo]

Agree on damage.pre Kara bis (epics+Blues) Me and my guildies prot warriors - both of them were doing at least 2-3x my damage on heroics and Kara..

We swapped roles around, taking turns to dps and tank to test.

But this is a much more tricky issue to fix.

[Anesthesia]

Going from t4 to t6 and not seeing any real improvement in damage isnt fun, and is one of the reasons I quit my prot pally.

Maybe you quit because you wanted to play a DPS class?

Agree on damage.pre Kara bis (epics+Blues) Me and my guildies prot warriors - both of them were doing at least 2-3x my damage on heroics and Kara..

So you did like 300 dps?
Or are you comparing yourself to revenge spec warrior tanks?

[natnat123]

Agree on damage.pre Kara bis (epics+Blues) Me and my guildies prot warriors - both of them were doing at least 2-3x my damage on heroics and Kara..

So you did like 300 dps?
Or are you comparing yourself to revenge spec warrior tanks?
[/quote]

im not revenge spec

[jetteroo]

Agree on damage.pre Kara bis (epics+Blues) Me and my guildies prot warriors - both of them were doing at least 2-3x my damage on heroics and Kara..

So you did like 300 dps?
Or are you comparing yourself to revenge spec warrior tanks?

im not revenge spec
[/quote]

@Anethesia - I dun really care about DPS when i m tanking, but the comment is correct. Becos of the way RF works, the damage is much lower than that of a prot tank with improved revenge/thunderclap, but it doesn't mean my threat is half of a warrior tank.

This means that for a raid lineup, the raid gets more DPS when the warrior goes prot and the paladin goes ret than when the paladin goes prot and warrior goes arms.

But that is beyond the scope of the discussion.

Anyway i m testing PTR tonight with full T4, will send out results once I m satisfied with the testing conditions with different variables.

[mweldinger]

Going from t4 to t6 and not seeing any real improvement in damage isnt fun, and is one of the reasons I quit my prot pally.

Maybe you quit because you wanted to play a DPS class?

No. the main reason I quit was because we're missing nearly our entire threat kit, and the solution was a bandaid RF increase.