Prot pally single target threat

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mweldinger
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Prot pally single target threat

#1 » Post by mweldinger » 17 Jun 2017 19:11

I've been rolling through heroics on my prot pally and loving it for the most part.

My main issue is our single target threat. it is mediocre at best, and we have no snap threat. and for most single target bosses we dont get enough mana from healing + BoS + mana pots to keep a full rotation going.

In Wotlk downranking was removed, and spell costs were based around having high divine plea uptime with the talent. If we had Divine plea and could use AS + cons on single target or had something like Shield of the righteous to give us a bit more upfront snap single target threat things would be better.

I dont expect paladins to be equal to druids/wars on single target, but we shouldn't be as low as we are.

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Flooded
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#2 » Post by Flooded » 18 Jun 2017 11:22

We are waiting to see how Paladin tanks are in raids before making any changes like adding abilities. We're also concerned with the points you brought up, but we are also concerned with how a spell like divine plea or shield of the righteous will affect the other two specs or PvP.

We tested Protection Paladins in the PTR testing and didn't find issues with them. We also considered giving paladins Shield during testing, but found it to be too much.

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mweldinger
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#3 » Post by mweldinger » 19 Jun 2017 05:53

Something is going to have to be done. our single target is really really low especially considering the ramp up time for our seal of corruption/vengeance. I was hoping that moving up to my 81dps weapon that my Seal of corruption threat would go up substantially, but it hasnt helped as much as I had hoped. I've also started favoring more str on my gear over pure surviveability but it also hasn't given the returns i was hoping for.

On fast or hard hitting bosses things are more a bit more manageable, but I feel like my threat is a hindrance to my groups. In BC prot pallies were the AOE tanks, and i feel the poor single target was more justifiable as we were the only tanks with unlimited target aoe threat builders.

Right now things are "ok", but as dps moves into their full pre-bis and later onto kara gear we are not going to be viable due to threat limitations. It feels like we are incomplete and just missing too much from our wotlk toolkit in this current build, and something is going to have to be done to compensate or the prot pally class is going to be labeled useless and left to the wayside.

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Flooded
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#4 » Post by Flooded » 19 Jun 2017 18:20

I want you to try moving points from Eye for an Eye to Reckoning and tell me how that improves your threat.

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mweldinger
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#5 » Post by mweldinger » 19 Jun 2017 19:32

I dont have eye for an eye. do you mean Stoicism?

in tbc reckoning is one of, if not our lowest threat ability. It only sees decent enough uptime on fast swinging, or large packs of mobs which are situations where we have plenty of mana and holy shield procs anyway and a bit of extra single target isn't that useful. Its single target situations where out mana struggles and we cant even keep up with hs+judge+consecrate let alone throwing in avenger's shield or HoW and we're just left there with our mana pot on cooldown using holy shield and hoping we have enough mana to Holy Shield and judge on cd.

with 3/5 reckoning you're looking at a sub 10% uptime on the buff with it getting slightly higher at 5/5, but the talent point investment is too high at that point.

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Flooded
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#6 » Post by Flooded » 19 Jun 2017 21:13

I'm aware that the talent isn't the strongest, but its possible that the proc rate could be adjusted to bring Paladins up to where warriors are in single target threat.

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Nyeriah

Re: Prot pally single target threat

#7 » Post by Nyeriah » 19 Jun 2017 21:17

I don't think that talent would make a difference unless really buffed (in which case it would probably be too strong for us keep it). You're adding extra attacks, you don't really want to always have extra attacks...

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arsa992
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#8 » Post by arsa992 » 20 Jun 2017 17:22

If you cant give us sor, can you at least nerf mana usage for certain spells like as and consecration? Maybe lower cd of as since as is our best single target threat spell atm? I too noticed that i'm always strugling to keep threat on bosses.

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mweldinger
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#9 » Post by mweldinger » 20 Jun 2017 18:48

The issue lies with our incomplete toolkit causing scaling issues.

With Righteous fury holy damage is a large part of our threat modifier, and we dont have HotR to cause holy damage based on weapon damage or SotR to deal holy damage based on block.

The only source of weapon damage to holy damage is from 5stacks of SoV at 33% and that just isn't enough. when out intended kit for these had us doing 4x weapon dps as holy to 3 targets every 6 seconds (and stacking SoV iirc) and SoR doing block value as holy all getting modified by rightous fury.

I also have a feeling that consecration is going to start lagging behind before too long as well for large packs of sustained aoe.

on top of that as mentioned above our mana costs are based around near 100% uptime on plea, so we cant even use what we do have available to us.


I'm not advocating for giving us the full wotlk toolkit or anything like that, just point out where I see a lot of our deficiencies coming from. Right now prot pally isn't even close to what I would consider a baseline for tank threat. They are borderline viable, but if changes are not made then it wont be too much longer till dps completely trashes our tps and we go from sub-par to not-viable. I love the class and i'm going to stick it out, but its frustrating to play because it seems like no matter what you do you just cant keep up.

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flosr1
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#10 » Post by flosr1 » 21 Jun 2017 19:38

would it help to change back all the paladin tank items - that originally had spellpower - back to their spellpower values from TBC? like t-set items?

i am not so familiar with paladin, so just an idea

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mweldinger
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#11 » Post by mweldinger » 21 Jun 2017 21:33

Coefficients were changed so that we wouldnt need/want static spellpower on gear with wotlk.

We have a talent that gives us spell power from strength, and most of our abilities have AP and SP coefficients together. TBC tier gear had no strength on it at all so we would gain static SP, but lose Strength which would take away the spellpower from the talent, ap from the strength, and block value from the strength. It would also lower our weapon damage range which would then lower our SoV 5 stack 33% weapon dmg proc.

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mweldinger
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#12 » Post by mweldinger » 29 Jun 2017 00:39

Did some preliminary testing on the ptr on t4-t6 scaling. after looking at my first set of data it is bad. really bad. I'll put together my data and post it up.

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jetteroo
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#13 » Post by jetteroo » 17 Aug 2017 03:58

What about increasing the threat buff from righteous fury from 80% increase to say 150%?

That way prot specs can continue looking to use avenger shield, exorcism and consecration to generate more threat without affecting other DPS abilities for other specs like Ret and holy.

I m playing a prot paladin and to be honest the stronger my group is the harder it is for me to keep aggro.

I m mostly pre raid bis with purples and have massive issues with threat compared to a similarly geared warrior, Both in Kara and in 5 man's.

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jetteroo
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#14 » Post by jetteroo » 17 Aug 2017 04:07

I was trying out changes post patch for mana cost for avengers shield and consecration, but to me mana isn't so much an issue unless I get mana burn (mana tombs anyone?)

Anyway whatever I been saying has been discussed by mizzeeh so the issue isn't in doubt. It about least intrusive and yet effective way to fix it

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=38102

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jetteroo
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Re: Prot pally single target threat

#15 » Post by jetteroo » 17 Aug 2017 07:18

jetteroo wrote:
17 Aug 2017 04:07
I was trying out changes post patch for mana cost for avengers shield and consecration, but to me mana isn't so much an issue unless I get mana burn (mana tombs anyone?)

Another suggestion would be to reduce CD on avengers shield.

Read this on another post

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=37967

But adding sotr might completely unbalance the game play and not sure how easy it is to add sotr

I saw the comment that buffing righteous fury is a band aid solution, but hey primal wow is unique this way, we have to find creative ways to balance as blizzard never meant for the primal wow system to be balanced so I dun really think we need to be concerned about making certain things unblizzlike.

If we do not fix this then we end up having a concentration of classes and certain classes doing only certain roles like in Vanilla

Anyway whatever I been saying has been discussed by mizzeeh so the issue isn't in doubt. It about least intrusive and yet effective way to fix it

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=38102

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