[PW] Tirion's Retribution Guide (Vanilla Retri OMG)

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Tirionfordri
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[PW] Tirion's Retribution Guide (Vanilla Retri OMG)

#1 » Post by Tirionfordri » 20 May 2016 18:12

Introduction: If you wanna roll a retri paladin on vanilla first of all - think twice . Because , as you probably already heard about bad dps that retri done in vanilla . Well its kinda true, before naxx retri done poor dps compared to pure dps classes, but after they could compete with others, there even proofs on youtube : you can check it if u like

But here on primal we have different situation with paladin dps. Since SoC (Seal of Command) was reworked in WoTLK we are not able to do STR-based build and itemization like back in Vanilla days (Well, you still can ,but obviously, results will dissapoint you :D).
There also some notes on forum about : DONT EVEN TRY RETRI HERE, IT SUCKZ, e.t.c. But we will ignore them and move further.
So we move to Spell Power(SP) Paladin !
  1. Talents
  2. Benefits, which Retri provides to the Raid
  3. Pre-raid BiS (with enchants)
  4. Pre AQ-40 BiS (enchants the same )
  5. Pre Naxx BiS
  6. BiS till TBC
  7. Pre-raid BiS TBC
  8. Consumables
  9. Rotation
  10. Inspiration
  11. Q&A section
  12. Shockadin?!
  13. PvP notes
Talents
There are 3 builds you can choose from:
1. This is standart SP with some support talents,that are very beneficial to the raid

2.This build is recommended if ur raid havent Blessing of Sanctuary
As for dps its kinda bad tho.(On some encounters when u get constant dmg(Like Firemaw in BWL) it might be ok)

3.Great build with improved Hand of Salvation(HoS)
If your raid suffering from overaggroing (Its like for sure :D) this build will be a way to go.(Improved HoS is really amazing)

4.Pre-patch talents
The only thing you can change here - trade Vindication for 50% more crit on hammer.
Benefits, which Retri provides to the Raid
  1. Increased dmg by 3%
  2. Crit buff by 3%
  3. Retri aura which hits for 100+ (bcs its scales from SP) which is rly nice for threat generation (holy damage generate 150% threat)
    Depending on your talents choices :
  4. increased Hand of Salvation(by 100% !) OR buff to 6% more healing
Pre-raid BiS
Well , before raids you gonna struggle , if you are not prepared - play holy xD
And now seriously: Its rly hard to get BiS pre-raid items because you need almost every stat in the game :
Stamina - well you wanna live in raids, so +
Strength - gives us AttackPower(AP) and lots of our spells scale with it, +
Critical Strike - more crit - more dmg , also you should have near 100% uptime of Vengeance(talent), so +
Agility - gives crit , benefits - see above, +
Mana per 5 - your dps comes from spells and melee hits , you should have a lot of mana regen to constantly casting spells, so +
Intellect - gives us spell crit and boost ur mana - definitely +
Spell Damage - as you could notice we are talking about SP paladin so its one of our important stat (on pair with STR), +
So heres the list:
  1. Weapon: you can choose from 2 opportunities , first is craft from BS : Masterwork Stormhammer
    second is from ZG but its BindonEquipment(BoE) so you can easily buy it:Hand of Edward the Odd
    Also id like to mention that Nightfall is another choice if u just lvled up - its ur ticket to the raids actually , even if ur other gear suckz ^^.But its awfull for dps - never use it for this.
    You can ask me which one is better and my answer is : the're both good(Tested both , there is minimum difference in dps)
    Chant : Crusader.
  2. Libram: This one is easy - we have no libram which affect dps , so u can choose whatever you want , personally i use Libram of Truth combined with first build - armor aura will be huge.
  3. Offhand: Tome of the Lost
  4. Trinkets: There is a brilliant trinket from engineers :High-powered Flashlight We need to get 80 hit - its softcap for hit and this one item gives us 24 - amazing.
    Second one can be Mark of Resolution which gives us 18 hit and mini save.
  5. Rings: you want Tarnished Elven Ring - 10 hit , couple of crit , just nice.
    Aaaand you have to grind out Exalted with Cenarion Guys in Silithus just to get this one : Wrath of Cenarius This ring is crazy for retri , it procs constantly when you do some tricks so its +132 SP from one item - not bad,yeah?:D
  6. Pants:BS craft again : Titanic Leggings 20 hit and 30 STR - brilliant, Chant : +8 STR
  7. Hands: This is our trick to proc the ring, and you have to craft it again from BS :Storm Gauntlets They add dmg to our hits and it counts like spells which can proc the ring! Amazing , dont it?:) Chant: +16 SP
  8. Boots: Soulforge BootsSoulforge set is paladins T0.5 , so when i said you gonna struggle its mostly because of that :D , Chant: +7 agility
  9. Belt:Soulforge Belt another piece of T0.5.
  10. Head:Soulforge Helm 3rd piece of T0.5,Chant : +8 STR
  11. Neck:Diana's Pearl Necklace another 8 hit and some SP with intellect.
  12. Shoulders:Soulforge Spaulders 4 rth piece of T0.5
  13. Back:Spritecaster Cape - Houndmaster Grebmar, BRD, Chant: +3 agility
  14. Chest:Soulforge Breastplate 5th piece of T0.5,Chant : +4 all stats
  15. Wrist : Soulforge Bracers the easiest one from all T0.5 , Chant: +15 SP
As u can see with this items you have exactly 80 hit and good amount of STR and SP.And we also get 6th set bonus from T0.5:chance to increase Sp by 95 for 10 sec - great and +40 ap constantly.
Pre AQ BiS (enchants the same )
  1. Weapon: The Untamed Blade(drops from the first boss in bwl) , the proc is amazing (its not that frequent on single fights but very delicious on aoe).
    Also, u could use Ashkandi, Greatsword of the Brotherhood which is more consistent than previous one,but also provide less dmg than previous with lucky procs.
    Next one you could use is Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros Well, its a liiiitle pain to obtain this one, but if u are lucky on procs its BiS till naxx or even more ^^, so try it out :D
  2. Libram: same as before
  3. Trinkets: Neltharion's Tear and Drake Fang Talisman is the ideal setup.
    However, it could be hard to obtain them, so my recomended trinkets Darkmoon Card: Maelstrom|Zandalarian Hero Charm or still trinkets with hit if u lack it.
  4. Rings: One is from silithus still (Its too good to replace it) and other one is Band of Accuria. Also u could use Ring of Eternal Justice from AQ20 or Zanzil's Seal which is obtainable from ZG.
  5. Pants: Still BS ones - a lot of str and hit.
  6. Hands: Also not changeable - as mentioned above hands+ring is a must.
  7. Boots: First item from T2 which u should use Judgement Sabatons
  8. Belt: Onslaught Girdle from Ragnaros.(which is BiS through all vanilla)
  9. Head: Another piece Judgement Crown
  10. Neck: Choker of the Fire Lord from last boss of MC.
  11. Shoulders: And another piece Judgement Spaulders
  12. Back: Cloak of Draconic Might from BWL trash.
  13. Chest: Judgement Breastplate 4rth piece.
  14. Wrist : Last T2 piece Judgement Bindings
As u can see, u will get that sweet SP bonus from 5 pieces of T2, 80 hit and lots of STR and SP.
Pre Naxx BiS
  1. Weapon: You can still use Sulf or either Kalimdor's Revenge or Dark Edge of Insanity.
  2. Libram: It's finally time to change that blue book! We get sweet Libram of Grace which is beneficial for both PvE and PvP.
  3. Trinkets: Same as before.
  4. Rings: One is Accuria but another awesome ring is from C'thun Ring of the Fallen God.Or u can use C'thun and AQ20 rings.(depends on hit)
  5. Pants: Avenger's Legguards Tier 2.5 which is BiS till the end of vanilla.
  6. Hands: Gauntlets of Annihilation from C'thun.
  7. Boots: Avenger's Greaves Second piece of T2.5.
  8. Belt: As i mentioned before - MCs belts is the best.
  9. Head: Avenger's Crown third piece of T2.5.
  10. Neck: Barbed Choker is the best.
  11. Shoulders: Avenger's Pauldrons fourth piece of T2.5.
  12. Back: Cloak of Concentrated Hatred OR that one from BWL - depends on ur hit.
  13. Chest:Avenger's Breastplate last T2.5 piece.
  14. Wrist: Hive Defiler Wristguards OR Qiraji Execution Bracers if u lacking hit.
So, thats it, 5 pieces of T2.5 will give u 71 SP - thats a lot and pretty nice crit rating.

BiS till TBC
  1. Weapon: Still Sulf or Corrupted Ashbringer or Might of Menethil or good axe from Patchwerk Severance.
  2. Libram: same , from AQ40 or that blue Libram to reduce cost of seals.
  3. Trinkets: Drake fang or Tear with Slayer's Crest
  4. Rings: One from C'thun (hit is a king , like always :D) and Band of Unnatural Forces
  5. Pants: Legplates of Carnage
  6. Hands: same
  7. Boots: Chromatic Boots
  8. Belt: same
  9. Head: same
  10. Neck: same
  11. Shoulders: Spaulders of the Grand Crusader
  12. Back: Shroud of Dominion
  13. Chest: Plated Abomination Ribcage
  14. Wrist: Wristguards of Vengeance

    Notice , that you break previous T2.5 only when you have a couple of replacement items, otherwise replacing just 1-2 of them is not worth it.
Pre-raid BiS TBC
Firstofall get draenei in your party - with him you only need 7%(111) hit rating to be hit-capped, overwise you need 8%(127)
Expertise cap is 6.25 and its not rly achieveable in TBC and not needed actually - i tested it and its just not worth.
One of yours professions for tbc should be BS - you loose so much if you don't.
  1. Weapon:The best wep is Lionheart Champion,it has decent stats and gives huge 100 str buff, it is required to be BS tho.
  2. Libram: Libram of Avengement looks like the best choice on start.
  3. Trinket: for first you should get Bloodlust Brooch, its on pair with Darkmoon Card: Crusade (compared it 2min window-wise and it was like 14200ap from Brooch and 14400 from Crus and this was with assumption that you start with full 20 stacks with Crus(which is not true obviusly)), but since you will be using Avenging Wrath pump effect of Brooch will give you better result than Crus for sure.
    Another trinket is Hourglass of the Unraveller,it was decent trinket back in TBC, we will see how it goes in Wrath.
    Also solid choice is Abacus of Violent Odds - ret scales well with haste.
  4. Rings:A'dal's Command thats an awesome ring- 29 str is a lot.The Sha'tar - Exalted
    Resounding Ring of Glory good str and hit.
  5. Pants:Vanquisher's Legplates Lots of strength and 3 sockets
  6. Hands:Ragesteel Gloves - complect bonus(only if you BS)
  7. Boots:Obsidian Clodstompers or if you wish to farm some rep - Vortex Walking Boots
  8. Belt:Deathforge Girdle
  9. Head:Doomplate Warhelm complect bonus
  10. Neck:Skeletal Necklace of Battlerage
  11. Shoulders:Ragesteel Shoulders complect bonus (BS)
  12. Back:Vengeance Wrap socket + ap is what we need
  13. Chest:Doomplate Chestguard complect bonus
  14. Wrist:Black Felsteel Bracers
Chants: Gems: If you get all items mentioned above and complete socket bonuses for hit you will have exactly 127 hit (hit capped).
Btw filling all sockets with red ones is a good choice unless bonus provide some strength or hit.


Consumables
For flask you should use Juju Power it gives u more than Flask of Supreme Power bcs of 25% more scaling (10% from kings and 15% from talents), also , since its only battle elixir, you could use Elixir of Greater Intellect to boost ur manapool a bit.
For food you should bring Smoked Desert Dumplings for the reasons described above, u will benefit from it more than from Clamlette Magnifique
For weapon enchant you should use Shadow Oil
Shadow Bolt scales from SP so its a good + to your dps. And you can say :"But it lasts only 30 minutes and mats are quite expensive on the auction house" and I will say : "Then use Brilliant Wizard Oil poor bastard". But seriously : i have to admit that its quite annoying when you didnt notice that oil ended while you already fighting the boss.
Also you should bring Daemonic Runes and Major Mana Potion to consume them during the fight.
Rotation
Well , if u think that retri paladin has no rotation - i will dissapoint you : on this server he has.
So , we obviously using Seal of the Righteousness(SoR) which add some holy dmg to our white attacks.
We start our fight by Judging SoR , use Judgement of Wisdom(JoW) to gain mana from hits, and continue to judge whether its not on cooldown(cd).
After that use Consecration and always have Consecration up until the fight is over.
Third button which you have to click is exorcism.
The forurth one is active only when boss is 20% or lower - its Hummer of Wrath, this one should be prioritized among others spells.(My record is 3204 dmg by it).
If you fight undeads you will have even 5ths button! Its HolyWrath - amazing aoe dmg.
Well this is pretty much it, but you have to consider that how you use this spells is a little tricky , as u have a lot of pumping effects such as Crusader, amazing ring, T0.5 set bonus you always have to think when u wanna use spells. After some practice you will get a Feeling that will tell you in what exact moment you should click the certain spell.
And right know you might think: Wtf this guy talking about?! Well, since bumping effects are random you have to admit that time when u use spell is very important, sometimes when u feel lucky u can do a huge dps by just trusting your instincts.
Also i'd like to notice that you cant give a good dps without world buffs because vanilla gear gives only a little crit, but buffs compensate this.
Inspiration
If you've read up to here then u probably wanna try retri paladin by ur own , so here is some inspiration for you:
Ebonroc:
Image
Flamegor:
Image
Vaelastrasz: Old one
Image
New one
Image
You might think - why dps on older is bigger then the new one? - Look buffs :D
Mighty 2h :D
Image
New Ebonroc:
Image
New Flamegor:
Image
After Aoe phase on Nef:
Image
Overall on Nef (without any innervations sadly :O)
Image
Fankriss (1388 dps)
Image
Noth (1143 dps)
Image
As you can see - on aoe fights Ret is good, not so good at single target tho :(
Grobbulus with NF (984 dps)
Image

Q&A section
-What is more important for us - strength or spell power?
They are even, because with strength you get attack power which ups our white damage from wep and with SP your SoR will hit harder,also almost all our spells scale the same from AP and SP - so not much difference there.Hovewer , we scale better with strength bcs of 15% from talent - thats why from AQ 40 to the end of vanilla we gather mostly str gear. (But not before, bcs hybrid gear better in early stages).
-Are there options to replace some of Pre-raid BiS items?
Well, i mentioned Ideal pre-raid items, however its very time consuming to obtain T0.5. So, if you are already raiding - its no point to gather T0.5 at all costs bcs u will replace it very soon(if ur guild raids MC and BWL at least).
-How can i avoid farming that ring from Silithus?
Well, you can avoid this only if ur guild raiding full AQ 40 .

Shockadin?!
After that fix to holy shock (which now is not affrected by mana debuff) i tried out shocadin build and it does good dps actually, but requires A LOT of mana. And by a lot i mean that you will go OOM in 1m30sec even without using exo!!!
So, that basically means that you should get every inner or mana spring available - which probably never happen - so RIP Shocadin :D

PvP notes
Recently i've done some PvP action and i want to share some of my thoughts on this topic.
Acutally, i did pretty well - it comes from the fact that heals closely conected with SP and we have lots of it, so our dmg is ok and our heals are great and thats what u need to be successful in PvP :) Also i'd like to mention that versus DoTers Cleanse is a godlike spell which u should spam for sure :D
Well, ur PvP is more like grinding out ur opponents, since our burst dmg is not the best one , but consistent dmg is pretty solid tho.
First of all lets talk about talents : VS melee
With this talents u will absolutely crush melee classes , mostly bcs of reckoning , which is kinda similar to Reck-Bomb pallies from true vanilla , its less consistent but still good one.
VS casters
Here we focus more on survive ability and control aspects rather then burst dmg.
As you can see, if opponents have mixed dmg it is kinda trouble, cause we cant get all of talents we want to face them all. However i reccomend first build for BG's and second for Arena.
After couple of Arenas i realized that u need Holy Shock, because sometimes u need burst healz and sometimes burst dmg, it will help both and turns out Aura Mastery is pretty decent in PvP :)so here is the build for Arena with more healing, but u still can do some dmg :D.
As for gear u should definitely go with full T2 which will add you some burst potential and Zandalar+maelstorm trinkets for same reason, also u want to have shield, i prefer Red Dragonscale Protector bcs it gives u def and sp at the same time, also VS casters u can get Master Dragonslayer's Orb bcs of +stamina and a lot of SP on it.(cause def from shield would be barely helpfull vs casters :D) As for wep u probably should go with highest +SP as possible or if u already have nice SP pool u can go with Masterwork Stormhammer or thunderfury :) for burst purposes.
For rings i reccomend Band of Dark Dominion - a lot of stamina and SP, and second one is Ring of Spell Power. Well u can consider taking 2 of SP rings but in my humble opinion 6 sp < 12 stamina in PvP.

If there is something I missed that you want me to explain, then go ahead and tell me. I just shared some of my knowledge, if it's desired to go more into some of the minor details that I let out, then please let me know.


Kind regards,

TirionFordri.
Last edited by Tirionfordri on 21 Apr 2017 19:11, edited 43 times in total.

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Hairbrush
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Re: Tirion's Retribution Guide (Vanilla Retri OMG)

#2 » Post by Hairbrush » 04 Jun 2016 16:07

Tirion! I just tried to click on your talent links and it seems that they do not link to filled out talent trees! Help pls!

Edit: Also, in Consumables section you List Shadow Oil and then immediately call it "Shadow Bolt".

Read a little bit more and realized I was the dumb....
Last edited by Hairbrush on 04 Jun 2016 17:33, edited 2 times in total.

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Tirionfordri
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Re: [PW] Tirion's Retribution Guide (Vanilla Retri OMG)

#3 » Post by Tirionfordri » 04 Jun 2016 16:21

Thx for reply, links rly were broken, fixed right now :D

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Hairbrush
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Re: [PW] Tirion's Retribution Guide (Vanilla Retri OMG)

#4 » Post by Hairbrush » 04 Jun 2016 16:22

Awesome, thanks!

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Hairbrush
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Re: [PW] Tirion's Retribution Guide (Vanilla Retri OMG)

#5 » Post by Hairbrush » 04 Jun 2016 16:56

I have a question about those points that were put into Seals of the Pure.

Since it only affects SoRighteousness, SoVengence (Which is unobtainable until level 64), and SoCorruption (Which is BE only) why did you put those points there. Do you do some kind of "Seal Dance" between Command and Righteousness?

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Tirionfordri
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Re: [PW] Tirion's Retribution Guide (Vanilla Retri OMG)

#6 » Post by Tirionfordri » 04 Jun 2016 17:07

Well, you can use either SealOfCommand or SealOfRighteousness , but SealOfCommand does poor dmg bcs of rework in Wotlk , so its better to use SealOfRighteousness. Thats why we use 1h wep instead of 2h.About dancing its probably not worth it , cause u should always do consecration but it requires a lot of mana.
Last edited by Tirionfordri on 04 Jun 2016 17:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [PW] Tirion's Retribution Guide (Vanilla Retri OMG)

#7 » Post by Hairbrush » 04 Jun 2016 17:12

I see, so why put that point in SealOfCommand when it could be put into DevineIntelect or UnyieldingFaith?

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Tirionfordri
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Re: [PW] Tirion's Retribution Guide (Vanilla Retri OMG)

#8 » Post by Tirionfordri » 04 Jun 2016 17:14

On aoe its still a good seal, and you should use it instead of SoR for sure :)

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Re: [PW] Tirion's Retribution Guide (Vanilla Retri OMG)

#9 » Post by Hairbrush » 04 Jun 2016 17:34

Gotcha, thank you for the help :D

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Re: [PW] Tirion's Retribution Guide (Vanilla Retri OMG)

#10 » Post by oooooooooolde » 04 Jun 2016 17:50

HAVE FAITH IN RET!

Once TBC rolls around and we get Crusader Strike it should beef up the dps a lot (along with all those juicy % buffs in the ret tree)

For now i can double that Ebonroc dps on my warrior :/

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Tirionfordri
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Re: [PW] Tirion's Retribution Guide (Vanilla Retri OMG)

#11 » Post by Tirionfordri » 04 Jun 2016 20:32

Well , its true that ret provide by now only sub-optimal dps, but it also provide some nice buffs for entire raid , so its probably kinda okay to have 1-2 rets for raid, and hopefully in naxx it will be better .In TBC it will be better for sure :D
But as i mentioned before , its not that easy to do even that sub-optimal dps, so ye , its kinda challengeable. And as a warrior , for example, you can deal same dmg in a worser gear.

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Tirionfordri
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Re: [PW] Tirion's Retribution Guide (Vanilla Retri OMG)

#12 » Post by Tirionfordri » 11 Jun 2016 13:25

Here is update : added Pre AQ-40 BiS list

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Tirionfordri
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Re: [PW] Tirion's Retribution Guide (Vanilla Retri OMG)

#13 » Post by Tirionfordri » 18 Jun 2016 16:57

Added PvP Section.

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Hairbrush
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Re: [PW] Tirion's Retribution Guide (Vanilla Retri OMG)

#14 » Post by Hairbrush » 06 Jul 2016 21:52

I understand the advantage of having Libram of Truth.

Wouldn't Libram of Fervor have more utility for Seal Dancing?

By that I mean: if the paladin starts running low on mana and switches to Seal of Wisdom then switches back to Righteousness or Command the paladin doesn't lose as much recuperated mana. That is a good thing, yes?

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Tirionfordri
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Re: [PW] Tirion's Retribution Guide (Vanilla Retri OMG)

#15 » Post by Tirionfordri » 06 Jul 2016 23:07

Yes , sure , if its a long fight when you went oom(Nef for example) you should use Libram of Fervor for sure and also if u have another paaldin with protection aura u should also that Libram.

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