Frost DK 3.3.5a DPS PvE Guide

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mcheka
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Re: Frost DPS Compendium

#31 » Post by mcheka » 06 Dec 2015 07:05

Really nice and detailed criticism (welcome to the server by the way). Just a few points I wanted to note: 2pcT10 and 4pcT10 are indeed working here. Expertise is in a weird spot - ~22 is the cap in ICC but 26 is the cap in Ruby Sanctum. Simulations aren't perfect, especially given that truewow mechanics differ a bit from retail, but it's the best guide we have (individual dps numbers in raids are invalid because they are not in any way statistically significant). Sims can also be modified for truewow - I don't know if it's the case with Crown's sims though. I believe runes are somewhat bugged. The amount of RP gained from rejuv (revitalize) is very bugged and gives far too much RP compared to how it was in retail, so you're right that in optimizing for truewow this must be taken into account.
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Re: Frost DPS Compendium

#32 » Post by rifokelt » 07 Dec 2015 22:31

Well then, do try my talents and rotation and compare dps, during multiple encounters. I believe mine is better but can't be certain, I have not played on your server and I can't transfer a char as I don't meet your requirements (site char transfer thingy)..
Edit: Ty for the welcome :).

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Re: Frost DPS Compendium

#33 » Post by Crown » 20 Aug 2016 12:03

rifokelt wrote:Hello, I come from a server, whose name I won't directly mention, as I do not wish to advertise (it had a recent wipe). Anyhow I roll fdk very frequently and have cleared everything. I enjoy theory crafting and read your guide (all of it). Now I do not mean to be disrespectful but simulations are not very accurate as they don't take a lot of things into account, the only thing they're 100% accurate in is stat calculation, so with that said there are some things which I do not agree with withing this guide.

Important note: Before I continue I should add that where I play the expertise cap is 22 (proven many a times), 2pT10 does not work and 4pT10 only procs from Blood Boil, Howling Blas, Icy Touch, Death Coil after both Blood/Death runes are on cooldown. I do not know if such is the case with your dks here. But I did check out your bugtracker and didn't see such issues being present.

So with those things to keep in mind, firstly I can't agree that that talent spec is optimal for single target. BCB does so very little damage (at least where I play, will give you a picture of a 10m recount just to see how much it did, note it was 1/3, for a 3/3 comparison do 88,3k x3) . Those points are much better spent in Black Ice, since your RP dump/ KM dump and HB via Rime procs will get a nice buff, and let's face it they make up for ~20+ of your whole damage. Chill of the grave is very arguable since Anti magic shell will more than likely fill you up to the brim with RP. Not to mention that during 25 man raids you will get a lot of RP from rejuvs, Wild growths and disc shields. Subversion is a great dps gain cuz Obliterate critting as much as possible is what you want. Not to mention that the threath reduction will more than likely come in handy when you're bursting for over 30k.

I also can't agree with your starting rotation. I'll shamelessly copy myself (from my own guide) on rotation
IT > Blood Tap + Unbreakable Armor + Hyperspeed Accelerators macro here along with a Plague Strike (this happens at the same time, altho u still need to Blood Tap + Unbreakable Armor before Plague Strike so that the Plague Strike hits a bit harder, free dps is still dps) > OB > PEST (the pestilence here is super important, it will allow you to use blood strike first and then pestilence in the future, eventually saving you time, runes and more importantly making the most of your procs) > HB (if it’s been procced by Rime, if not skip this) > ERW > OB > OB > OB > FS dump > OB > OB > BS > PEST > FS dump as you will have runes on cd > OB > OB > OB > FS dump
I should note that you use HB, whenever Blood runes / Death runes are on CD (both of them) and you have no Killing Machine to exhaust.

And a simplified version w/o explanations

IT > Blood Tap + Unbreakable Armor + Hyperspeed Accelerators +Plague Strike > OB > PEST > HB (if*) > ERW > OB > OB > OB > FS dump > OB > OB > BS > PEST > FS dump > OB > OB > OB > FS dump

Now DO note that that rotation is still very specific to the server I play in but if your rune usage is working correctly @ truewow then using UA before PS and your first OB will be a DPS gain, since your trinkets and other procs, such as ring and cloak (if you're a tailor) will be up.

When it comes to professions Tailoring is a great one as it will line up very well with your STS and since obliterate scales ridiculously well with AP it will beat out Blacksmithing/JWC as a proff in the long run.

The sets you use: If you don't get exactly 1400 arp w/o food/elixir then you are doing a bad job of crafting sets. The way I see it is that there is almost no certain way to determine a BiS set for a frost DK. I currently have ~7, with 2 more being still experimented on (winding sheet play) for arp and out of all of those 3 of them have equalled the same DPS overall. With over 100+ rs/iccs (hc) I got material to compare.

I think that is pmuch all I had to mention, I might be forgetting sth, but anyhow, if you want a link to my guide, I'll send you a PM, since again I wish no advertisement to be made towards the server I play in. Also SS of that 10m (dummy) RC is below:
http://i.imgur.com/LpBhYxg.jpg
Hey, first of all I want to apologise that it took me so long to reply, I've been retired for some time.

BCB here is fully working, and as such it provides more DPS than Black Ice if we're looking at it from DPS per talent perspective. The only exceptions are fights with more than 1 NPC invovled and higher runic power gain (Revitalize and/or Anti-Magic Shell)
As for Chill of the Grave, I already mentioned that if, you're getting somewhat excess "external runic power gain" on a consistent basis, that you can put that somewhere else, even thou I'd advise not to.
*it should be noted that if you were to hit more than 1 NPC with Howling Blast, you'd also get CotG bonus for every NPC that got hit
Subversion is great, but after 1/3 you're getting diminishing returns effect (more crit you have on Obli, talent becomes less viable). Having said that, 1/3 Subversion + 3/3 Blood-Caked Blade > 2/3 Subversion + 2/3 Blood-Caked Blade > 3/3 Subversion + 1/3 Blood-Caked Blade

Here, like in former retail patch, if you were to use BT+UA before doing Blood Strike, you'd miss a Blood Strike which consequently means having no damage and runic power from that special.
This is an evident DPS loss not only in the initial phase, but anytime you're using BT+UA.

That's why this initial rotation is optimal

Icy Touch > Plague Strike > Obliterate > Blood Strike > BT+UA > Pestilence

As for Tailoring, Kahorie ranked it lower than JC/BM on a 5 minute fight in 1000 iterations.

Regarding ArPen, there is nothing special in that 1400 number. It's true that the more ArP you have, the more it becomes valuable, but we also have to take a look at the whole picture here.
Keep in mind that you should never use ArP flask, even if you were to have 1399 with that flask, it is simply not worth of it as opposed to Endless Rage one.
If I were to put 20 ArP on, let's say the neck in my BiS list, I'd have 1408 ArP (9 points over the cap).
That basically means 10 hit 14 strength vs. 11 ArP. EP (equivalence point) of ArP near it's cap is 3 at best, while EP of Strength and Hit are 2.5 and 2.3 respectively. (I'm taking these numbers from Kahorie EP calculator)
11 ArP * 3 of it's EP value < 14 Strength * 2.5 of it's EP value + 10 Hit * 2.3 of it's EP value

I believe you can find a BiS setup for a frost dk, or any spec for that matter, as long as you manually simulate every possible combination of items/professions/gems/etc which is precisely what I did. (Given that the simulator is as accurate as possible)
Last edited by Crown on 20 Aug 2016 12:42, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Detailed guide for Frost DPS in 3.3.5a (With BiS lists)

#34 » Post by ribbaribbahey » 20 Aug 2016 12:15

Crown wrote:Simulations show that it's around 72% passive ArPen where Strength becomes an inferior stat. So, here's where you have a choice.
What do you mean? I think you wrote ''Strenght'' meaning ''Arpren'' or ''inferior'' meaning ''superior''. Else the meaning of that is ''keep your arp gears in the bank until you can stack 72% arp, only then swap from stacking Str to Arp''.
Last edited by ribbaribbahey on 20 Aug 2016 12:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Detailed guide for Frost DPS in 3.3.5a (With BiS lists)

#35 » Post by Crown » 20 Aug 2016 12:17

ribbaribbahey wrote:
Crown wrote:Simulations show that it's around 72% passive ArPen where Strength becomes an inferior stat. So, here's where you have a choice.
What do you mean? I think you wrote ''Strenght'' meaning ''Arpren'' or ''inferior'' meaning ''superior''.
At around 72% passive ArP (gear+gem+food), Strength becomes an inferior stat.
Last edited by Crown on 20 Aug 2016 12:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Frost DK 3.3.5a DPS PvE Guide

#36 » Post by ribbaribbahey » 20 Aug 2016 12:17

Check da edit

Ribbaz - 2300 2v2 Enhancement
Pokimans - 2100 2v2 Fire
Cazzuto - Arms PvE / 1950 2v2
Dextr - Blood Dps PvE / Frost "priority list" Dps PvE
Ribba - Beast Mastery PvP / Survival PvE

My Enhancement PvP guide

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Re: Frost DK 3.3.5a DPS PvE Guide

#37 » Post by Crown » 20 Aug 2016 12:38

ribbaribbahey wrote:Check da edit
It was just to show ArP/STR value relation.
I'd still advise going for strength until you know you can reach 80%ish ArP, simply because of AoE/it's little better on AMS-heavy fights.
mcheka wrote:Really nice and detailed criticism (welcome to the server by the way). Just a few points I wanted to note: 2pcT10 and 4pcT10 are indeed working here. Expertise is in a weird spot - ~22 is the cap in ICC but 26 is the cap in Ruby Sanctum. Simulations aren't perfect, especially given that truewow mechanics differ a bit from retail, but it's the best guide we have (individual dps numbers in raids are invalid because they are not in any way statistically significant). Sims can also be modified for truewow - I don't know if it's the case with Crown's sims though. I believe runes are somewhat bugged. The amount of RP gained from rejuv (revitalize) is very bugged and gives far too much RP compared to how it was in retail, so you're right that in optimizing for truewow this must be taken into account.
I modified it a little bit, was only editing the expertise cap and there is no difference at all in item selection simply because expertise isn't an important stat anyway (it's not worth force-capping it)
As for Revitalize/Rapture I'm not concerned about this at all, simply because I do not encourage dependency, and I personally think one should totally forget about this in terms of modifying talents and being dependent on someone else.

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Re: Frost DK 3.3.5a DPS PvE Guide

#38 » Post by mcheka » 20 Aug 2016 12:40

For the record, expertise is fully working and capped at 26 for undead (ICC) mobs now, but as you said it doesn't change item choice.
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Re: Frost DK 3.3.5a DPS PvE Guide

#39 » Post by ribbaribbahey » 31 Aug 2016 02:04

Top

Ribbaz - 2300 2v2 Enhancement
Pokimans - 2100 2v2 Fire
Cazzuto - Arms PvE / 1950 2v2
Dextr - Blood Dps PvE / Frost "priority list" Dps PvE
Ribba - Beast Mastery PvP / Survival PvE

My Enhancement PvP guide

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Re: Frost DK 3.3.5a DPS PvE Guide

#40 » Post by rifokelt » 01 Sep 2016 11:23

Hi, it did take you a long time. Ehm idk where to start really. Back when I posted my initial reply to your guide I was pretty biased on some things so apologies for that. I did see for myself that BCB is def the way to go for a purely DPS oriented build. I am currently updating my own guide and would like your thoughts on some things and help on others.

@rotation
I don't really see how it would be better to delay your UA so much (with 4.5 seconds). You'll lose proc sync time as well as a stronger obliterate and PS, both of which hit twice. I really do think that the starting rotation should simply skip the blood strike.

@rotation2
Idk if it's because of where I play or I'm simply doing something wrong but sometimes after the sync'ed used of 2x Blood runes on the 2nd part of our cycle when I use the BT + UA macro it converts one into a Deaht rune, uses it and it ends up going to a Blood rune. I want help on this.

@talents
Specifically for CotG, as with every class we spec for what the raid offers. As two examples, you'll rarely see paladin tanks specing judgemets of the just in 25 mans since dks already provide the speed buff reduction for them (there are exceptions to this ofc). The better example is, you won't see a holy paladin, who is going sub-prot picking up on imp.devo aura since it won't stack with a tank's imp.devo aura or an rdruid's +6% healing aura. The argument against CotG is kinda like that too, but I can understand why you've linked a spec with it. It would be the safer road to take (kinda like going for more TPs in subversion so you don't overaggro instead of BCB).

Small edit: I tried the initial rotation (w/o any runic power/ERW) that both of us linked. I got videos of both, waiting for them to upload so I can link. I did then, not to view the dps, but rather to see how the runes would turn out.

Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gsnb7pUCMoc and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zw2gnbkZH4

Do note that when I did both, I didn't use ERW and hadn't specced into CotG.

@another question
What do you think of using Berserking over Razorice?

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Re: Frost DK 3.3.5a DPS PvE Guide

#41 » Post by Crown » 03 Sep 2016 15:04

rifokelt wrote:Hi, it did take you a long time. Ehm idk where to start really. Back when I posted my initial reply to your guide I was pretty biased on some things so apologies for that. I did see for myself that BCB is def the way to go for a purely DPS oriented build. I am currently updating my own guide and would like your thoughts on some things and help on others.

@rotation1
I don't really see how it would be better to delay your UA so much (with 4.5 seconds). You'll lose proc sync time as well as a stronger obliterate and PS, both of which hit twice. I really do think that the starting rotation should simply skip the blood strike.


@rotation2
Idk if it's because of where I play or I'm simply doing something wrong but sometimes after the sync'ed used of 2x Blood runes on the 2nd part of our cycle when I use the BT + UA macro it converts one into a Deaht rune, uses it and it ends up going to a Blood rune. I want help on this.

@talents
Specifically for CotG, as with every class we spec for what the raid offers. As two examples, you'll rarely see paladin tanks specing judgemets of the just in 25 mans since dks already provide the speed buff reduction for them (there are exceptions to this ofc). The better example is, you won't see a holy paladin, who is going sub-prot picking up on imp.devo aura since it won't stack with a tank's imp.devo aura or an rdruid's +6% healing aura. The argument against CotG is kinda like that too, but I can understand why you've linked a spec with it. It would be the safer road to take (kinda like going for more TPs in subversion so you don't overaggro instead of BCB).

Small edit: I tried the initial rotation (w/o any runic power/ERW) that both of us linked. I got videos of both, waiting for them to upload so I can link. I did then, not to view the dps, but rather to see how the runes would turn out.

Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gsnb7pUCMoc and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zw2gnbkZH4

Do note that when I did both, I didn't use ERW and hadn't specced into CotG.

@another question
What do you think of using Berserking over Razorice?
@rotation1
Both Kahorie and in-game tests show that the initial rotation is optimal, it's different on truewow. (due to BT refreshing mechanic)

@rotation2
You aren't doing it wrong, I've just looked the video, it appears that rune refreshing script for Blood Tap is not working properly. This is how it should be:

If there is an inactive blood rune, convert it to death rune and activate it
Else if there is an inactive death rune, activate it (it doesn't get converted to blood rune)
Else if there is an active blood rune, convert it to death rune
Else do nothing (if you already have 2 death runes)

This applies to the first Blood rune only, second rune is never affected by BT.
This is all assuming FFUU is inactive.

Here's how the rotation should be occur:

[BBFFUU] > IT[BBfFUU] > PS[BBfFuU] > OB[BBffuu] > BS[dBffuu] > BT[DBffuu] > UA[dBffuu] > Pest[ddffuu]

It appears that BT is making your second blood rune death, and at the same time, it's making first death inactive to blood inactive.

@talents
Yeah I put it as a safer route, you can modify it accordingly if you feel so.

@another question
Tried it, replacing Razor Ice with Zerking is about 250 dps loss

I'd suggest reporting that BT refreshing bug, and meanwhile, testing BT on various cases (4 cases on rotation2 reply) to see where should it fit, but I think you doing it right away is the optimal way, which is right after IT.
If you need retail proof regarding BT fix, I can PM you.

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Re: Frost DK 3.3.5a DPS PvE Guide

#42 » Post by rifokelt » 03 Sep 2016 20:38

Crown wrote:
@rotation1
Both Kahorie and in-game tests show that the initial rotation is optimal, it's different on truewow. (due to BT refreshing mechanic)

@rotation2
You aren't doing it wrong, I've just looked the video, it appears that rune refreshing script for Blood Tap is not working properly. This is how it should be:

If there is an inactive blood rune, convert it to death rune and activate it
Else if there is an inactive death rune, activate it (it doesn't get converted to blood rune)
Else if there is an active blood rune, convert it to death rune
Else do nothing (if you already have 2 death runes)

This applies to the first Blood rune only, second rune is never affected by BT.
This is all assuming FFUU is inactive.

Here's how the rotation should be occur:

[BBFFUU] > IT[BBfFUU] > PS[BBfFuU] > OB[BBffuu] > BS[dBffuu] > BT[DBffuu] > UA[dBffuu] > Pest[ddffuu]

It appears that BT is making your second blood rune death, and at the same time, it's making first death inactive to blood inactive.

@talents
Yeah I put it as a safer route, you can modify it accordingly if you feel so.

@another question
Tried it, replacing Razor Ice with Zerking is about 250 dps loss

I'd suggest reporting that BT refreshing bug, and meanwhile, testing BT on various cases (4 cases on rotation2 reply) to see where should it fit, but I think you doing it right away is the optimal way, which is right after IT.
If you need retail proof regarding BT fix, I can PM you.
If you would be so kind then yes, I'd like to have some proof of how BT should work so I can link it in the bugreport section of the server. I assume you tested Zerking on Kahories?

Edit: Btw for me it puts Winding Sheet slightly above Varian's Furor and the simulators seem to show the former being ever so slightly better. Any thoughts?

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Re: Frost DK 3.3.5a DPS PvE Guide

#43 » Post by Crown » 05 Sep 2016 11:18

rifokelt wrote:
Crown wrote:
@rotation1
Both Kahorie and in-game tests show that the initial rotation is optimal, it's different on truewow. (due to BT refreshing mechanic)

@rotation2
You aren't doing it wrong, I've just looked the video, it appears that rune refreshing script for Blood Tap is not working properly. This is how it should be:

If there is an inactive blood rune, convert it to death rune and activate it
Else if there is an inactive death rune, activate it (it doesn't get converted to blood rune)
Else if there is an active blood rune, convert it to death rune
Else do nothing (if you already have 2 death runes)

This applies to the first Blood rune only, second rune is never affected by BT.
This is all assuming FFUU is inactive.

Here's how the rotation should be occur:

[BBFFUU] > IT[BBfFUU] > PS[BBfFuU] > OB[BBffuu] > BS[dBffuu] > BT[DBffuu] > UA[dBffuu] > Pest[ddffuu]

It appears that BT is making your second blood rune death, and at the same time, it's making first death inactive to blood inactive.

@talents
Yeah I put it as a safer route, you can modify it accordingly if you feel so.

@another question
Tried it, replacing Razor Ice with Zerking is about 250 dps loss

I'd suggest reporting that BT refreshing bug, and meanwhile, testing BT on various cases (4 cases on rotation2 reply) to see where should it fit, but I think you doing it right away is the optimal way, which is right after IT.
If you need retail proof regarding BT fix, I can PM you.
If you would be so kind then yes, I'd like to have some proof of how BT should work so I can link it in the bugreport section of the server. I assume you tested Zerking on Kahories?

Edit: Btw for me it puts Winding Sheet slightly above Varian's Furor and the simulators seem to show the former being ever so slightly better. Any thoughts?
Yeah, tested it with kahorie exclusively.

Hit back should always rank higher than Winding, I'm guessing you don't have a proper priority list within kahorie's. (default one values hit less)
You should have something like this in "priority" section:

Image

It's also the reason why the ArPen food is better than Dragonfin filet, with ArP you get to match more yellow sockets with Str+Hit combo. (Hit is like 0.3 EP points away from STR, which one of the reasons why is 272 cloak better than 277 one)
Too bad we can't reach the spell hit cap at BiS levels, but it is how it is.

You can download kahorie with already BiS lists in it, with starting rotation and priority list within "Frost BiS list" thread, just make sure to lower the latency.

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Re: Frost DK 3.3.5a DPS PvE Guide

#44 » Post by rifokelt » 06 Sep 2016 10:05

http://imgur.com/a/ugdt3

These are all my settings on Kahories. I use the 3 minute fight marker because most fights are either of that length or shorter. I'm discounting LK/Halion because those just depend on a lot of things.

Winding sheet play seems to fluctuate slightly less than Garosh/Varian. The difference is so minimal tho and when we take into account rng (+/- dmg) I guess I've answered my own question.

Thanks for the PM :).

Edit: Just noticed I didn't have the BT + UA after BS enabled. Redid simulations (on a 10 minute fight this time) and still winding sheet play ended up slightly better.

http://imgur.com/a/ilX5u

Edit2: Can you tell me how to extract data from Kahories, namely how to extract the data for Blood Tap you sent me since there's this guy that's adamant about how I'm in the wrong of the way BT should work.

There still might be something different from your settings though. If you can pinpoint sth wrong I'd like to redo sims for myself.

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Re: Frost DK 3.3.5a DPS PvE Guide

#45 » Post by Crown » 19 Jun 2017 01:25

Again, a late response, but expect me to be active on a semi-regular basis from now on...

Anyway, in your simulation, Winding Sheet indeed yields more DPS, and it fluctuates less, but it's because you have Glyph of Icy Touch, instead of Glyph of Disease, which makes all the difference. If you have GoD, it increases EP of Hit rating, particularly Spell Hit, and which is why it's a BiS item.

As for Kahorie's, check your inbox.

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