Frost DK 3.3.5a DPS PvE Guide

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aceman611
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Re: Detailed guide for Frost DPS in 3.3.5a (With BiS lists)

#16 » Post by aceman611 » 20 Feb 2015 08:54

Great guide overall. While I still personally roll with strength and Blood Subspec (to maximize my Frost Strikes), I'll likely try your build if/when I get STS. I have a couple of questions though.

First, I wonder about Toskk wrists vs. Bracers of the Heir. I know the simulator says use the agi ones, but I feel like a strength item with crit/arp (even with lower iLVL) ought to be better. Assuming I stick with 1 Havoc's Call and 1 Bloodvenom Blade, I'll be able to get these wrists, use the 5pc set and STS, and still reach around 1400 arp (with gems) WHILE reaching the spell hit cap (I HATE missing pestilence).

Second, I wonder about the Blood-Caked Blade talent. Whenever I look at damage done on recounts for arp Frost DKs, this talent only provides around 2% of the damage done (maybe slightly more, can't remember). Wouldn't investing those 3 points in Black Ice (which will increase Frost Strike, Howling Blast, and Necrosis Damage), or even Subversion (considering Obliterate hits so hard, 6% more crit sounds nice), be better for DPS?

Lastly, with this spec, aren't you constantly in danger of pulling aggro from your tanks? When I tried it I had major issues with aggro, and my gear has only gotten better since then. I'd be curious to know what threat % you're rolling at on average (given a good tank).

I'm sure you simmed this and came up with your ideal set and spec for a reason, but given that Frost DKs are bugged as they are on TW, I wouldn't think the simulator would be all that accurate. As a result, I have a hard time agreeing with some of your decisions, and welcome your thoughts on the matter.
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Re: Detailed guide for Frost DPS in 3.3.5a (With BiS lists)

#17 » Post by cherno666 » 20 Feb 2015 09:43

thumbs up for a nice guide, 1 thing though, how do you mean change sigil at35%? you can't change it during combat
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Re: Detailed guide for Frost DPS in 3.3.5a (With BiS lists)

#18 » Post by Crown » 20 Feb 2015 10:35

aceman611 wrote:Great guide overall. While I still personally roll with strength and Blood Subspec (to maximize my Frost Strikes), I'll likely try your build if/when I get STS. I have a couple of questions though.

First, I wonder about Toskk wrists vs. Bracers of the Heir. I know the simulator says use the agi ones, but I feel like a strength item with crit/arp (even with lower iLVL) ought to be better. Assuming I stick with 1 Havoc's Call and 1 Bloodvenom Blade, I'll be able to get these wrists, use the 5pc set and STS, and still reach around 1400 arp (with gems) WHILE reaching the spell hit cap (I HATE missing pestilence).

Second, I wonder about the Blood-Caked Blade talent. Whenever I look at damage done on recounts for arp Frost DKs, this talent only provides around 2% of the damage done (maybe slightly more, can't remember). Wouldn't investing those 3 points in Black Ice (which will increase Frost Strike, Howling Blast, and Necrosis Damage), or even Subversion (considering Obliterate hits so hard, 6% more crit sounds nice), be better for DPS?

Lastly, with this spec, aren't you constantly in danger of pulling aggro from your tanks? When I tried it I had major issues with aggro, and my gear has only gotten better since then. I'd be curious to know what threat % you're rolling at on average (given a good tank).

I'm sure you simmed this and came up with your ideal set and spec for a reason, but given that Frost DKs are bugged as they are on TW, I wouldn't think the simulator would be all that accurate. As a result, I have a hard time agreeing with some of your decisions, and welcome your thoughts on the matter.
The issue with Bracers of the Heir besides it's lower ilevel is that you'd (probably) need to put an additional +20 ArP gem somewhere, which means you'll lose a valuable Etched Ametrine, which combined (Strenght>Hit) holds the greatest value after ArP and hit caps.

Blood-Caked Blade is a wonderful talent, it's even better than Necrosis on an ArP capped Death Knight. (In DPS/Talent matter)
So, if there was a Blood-Caked Blade with 5/5, you could see a higher % of total damage done than Necrosis.
Black Ice holds a really low value, because it's only 2% of shadowfrost damage per talent, as opposed to getting Subversion or any other talent in 1/52/18 spec.
Black Ice can be considered as a filler talent, just so you can proceed to the third tier. If it wasn't for that rule, I'd go with 3/3 Subversion and 0/5 Black Ice instead.

Here are the DPS by Talent results taken from kahorie's with current BiS list and 1/52/18 talent build.
Value for Subversion | 159
Value for ImprovedIcyTouch | 1
Value for RPM | 24.5
Value for BlackIce | 85.5
Value for NervesofColdSteel | 501.67
Value for IcyTalons | 249.4
Value for Annihilation | 1390.33
Value for KillingMachine | 114.75
Value for ChillOfTheGrave | 260.5
Value for EndlessWinter | 153
Value for GlacierRot | 188.33
Value for ImprovedIcyTalons | 360
Value for MercilessCombat | 146
Value for Rime | 361.67
Value for ThreatOfThassarian | 1356.67
Value for BloodoftheNorth | 282.67
Value for UnbreakableArmor | 196
Value for FrostStrike | 0
Value for GuileOfGorefiend | 517.67
Value for TundraStalker | 316.4
Value for HowlingBlast | 317
Value for ViciousStrikes | 2.5
Value for Virulence | 16.33
Value for Epidemic | 1251
Value for RavenousDead | 111.67
Value for Necrosis | 207
Value for BloodCakedBlade | 213


Value for Frost Strike is 0, because it considers you already have it.

It does, naturally, the higher DPS you'll do, the more aggro you'll pull. I'm constantly having issues with stealing aggro from our tanks, but if you're running with rogues/hunters that shouldn't be a problem. Just as an example, I almost always pull those annoying Raging Spirits, due to a really high burst, but it isn't really an issue, since I just go to tank's spot and use Icebound Fortitude.
cherno666 wrote:thumbs up for a nice guide, 1 thing though, how do you mean change sigil at35%? you can't change it during combat
You can, actually, change your sigil during a combat. Weapon slots can be swapped during a combat. (MainHand, OffHand, Shield, Relic) Ideally, you'd want to change it as soon as you use any global cooldown below 35%.
Last edited by Crown on 06 Apr 2015 22:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Detailed guide for Frost DPS in 3.3.5a (With BiS lists)

#19 » Post by Crown » 15 Mar 2015 12:35

== New update at 15/03/2015 regarding new Blood Tap + Unbreakable Armor cases ==

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Re: Detailed guide for Frost DPS in 3.3.5a (With BiS lists)

#20 » Post by toamuka » 16 Mar 2015 13:42

I think the focal point of this guide is for DKs to stop using fast weapons. I even get PvE nerds from Divinity arguimg to me a fast weapon is superior due to more runeblade procs for razor ice aswell as faster stacking.

Despite them telling me this i tell them regardless of weapons they have 5 stacks due to Threat of Tharassian hitting with both weapons anyway.

Why isnt this common knowledge that two slow weps are better...

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Re: Detailed guide for Frost DPS in 3.3.5a (With BiS lists)

#21 » Post by Justicelight » 16 Mar 2015 14:02

Some people see what speed their weapon have (OMG close to 1 second, my dps will be huge) but they fail to look at the weapon damage written on it.


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Re: Detailed guide for Frost DPS in 3.3.5a (With BiS lists)

#22 » Post by Myaoming » 16 Mar 2015 15:04

toamuka wrote:I think the focal point of this guide is for DKs to stop using fast weapons. I even get PvE nerds from Divinity arguimg to me a fast weapon is superior due to more runeblade procs for razor ice aswell as faster stacking.

Despite them telling me this i tell them regardless of weapons they have 5 stacks due to Threat of Tharassian hitting with both weapons anyway.

Why isnt this common knowledge that two slow weps are better...

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Re: Detailed guide for Frost DPS in 3.3.5a (With BiS lists)

#23 » Post by Crown » 19 Mar 2015 22:54

== New update at 19/03/2015 regarding Expertise and Runeforging relation
and Death Knight DPS T10 4p pre-pull/downphase utilization ==

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Re: Detailed guide for Frost DPS in 3.3.5a (With BiS lists)

#24 » Post by Silverhand » 04 Apr 2015 23:10

Gratz guide, it changed my whole way of playing Frost Dk and i found it to be the best of any i ever played. Any idea of a good dk dps addon?

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Re: Detailed guide for Frost DPS in 3.3.5a (With BiS lists)

#25 » Post by Arockalypse » 05 Apr 2015 04:38

Silverhand wrote:Gratz guide, it changed my whole way of playing Frost Dk and i found it to be the best of any i ever played. Any idea of a good dk dps addon?
Seems like Crown's guide changed your life :D
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Re: Detailed guide for Frost DPS in 3.3.5a (With BiS lists)

#26 » Post by Crown » 06 Apr 2015 21:59

Silverhand wrote:Gratz guide, it changed my whole way of playing Frost Dk and i found it to be the best of any i ever played. Any idea of a good dk dps addon?
From my experience, Acherus Runes is an addon that you want for displaying runes/runic power.
For showing procs (Killing Machine/Rime) and diseases, these are addons worth mentioning.

Class Timers
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Tell Me When
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Power Auras
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For trinkets and their internal cooldown monitoring, you want to get Need To Know.

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Re: Detailed guide for Frost DPS in 3.3.5a (With BiS lists)

#27 » Post by saad » 15 May 2015 21:29

I have a question can you please tell me the exact stat we need and also i dont have sts 2hc token and the 25hc back, so what i can do insted of your gems and etc.

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Re: Frost DPS Compendium

#28 » Post by Crown » 20 May 2015 11:40

I wouldn't know your gear, but from what you've wrote, it appears have ilevel277 gear mostly, with few ilevel264 items, which means that you should definitely cap ArP.
I'd advise hitting melee special hit cap if you didn't (4% if alliance, 5% if you're horde), then getting as much as armor penetration possible until you reach the cap that is (If you have jewelcrafting and/or blacksmithing, you should use these gem bonuses to your gear, using ArP food, implementing ArP gems...), then go for spell hit cap, and perhaps getting somewhat reasonable Expertise (but it depends on your latency).
That's pretty much it.

==New update at 16/05/2015 regarding accurate truewow expertise values and adding past two blood rune cases to remind how it was to DPS as Frost without the fixes we have today==

==New update at 20/05/2015 title changed to Frost DPS Compendium since it became a collection of Frost theorycraft knowledge ==

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Re: Frost DPS Compendium

#29 » Post by Crown » 18 Jun 2015 17:04

Final BiS For Wrath of the Lich King (Ruby Sanctum 25 Heroic loot included)

These lists do not include 49 expertise rating bonus from truewow bug. Difference between BiS list with expertise bug, and without it is about 50, with really good latency and zero runic power gain. (If you are still interested in expertise bug build, you'll have to PM me).

You'll probably notice icewalker enchant on feet rather than nitro boosts. Because it is a purely stationary single target dps simulation (no movements at all, e.g. Saurfang jr. fight).

Now, there is only one absolute BiS for an orc, but there are 2 BiS lists for every other race. If you're not an orc, you'll probably need to download kahorie's dk simulator with my work on it at the bottom of the page (It has everything covered, 2nd and 3rd BiS list, Intro and Priority system, et cetera) implement latency/runic power gain and see if you should use 2nd or 3rd list.
(The higher the personal latency and/or external runic power gain, the higher the value of expertise is)
Absolute BiS list for an orc
Image
Non-expertise BiS list for any other race except orc
Image
*Very low latency/external runic power gain build
Expertise BiS list for any other race except orc
Image
*Low latency/external runic power gain build

Download Kahorie's DK Simulator 1.2.1.7 - Latency test.rar

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Re: Frost DPS Compendium

#30 » Post by rifokelt » 02 Dec 2015 08:44

Hello, I come from a server, whose name I won't directly mention, as I do not wish to advertise (it had a recent wipe). Anyhow I roll fdk very frequently and have cleared everything. I enjoy theory crafting and read your guide (all of it). Now I do not mean to be disrespectful but simulations are not very accurate as they don't take a lot of things into account, the only thing they're 100% accurate in is stat calculation, so with that said there are some things which I do not agree with withing this guide.

Important note: Before I continue I should add that where I play the expertise cap is 22 (proven many a times), 2pT10 does not work and 4pT10 only procs from Blood Boil, Howling Blas, Icy Touch, Death Coil after both Blood/Death runes are on cooldown. I do not know if such is the case with your dks here. But I did check out your bugtracker and didn't see such issues being present.

So with those things to keep in mind, firstly I can't agree that that talent spec is optimal for single target. BCB does so very little damage (at least where I play, will give you a picture of a 10m recount just to see how much it did, note it was 1/3, for a 3/3 comparison do 88,3k x3) . Those points are much better spent in Black Ice, since your RP dump/ KM dump and HB via Rime procs will get a nice buff, and let's face it they make up for ~20+ of your whole damage. Chill of the grave is very arguable since Anti magic shell will more than likely fill you up to the brim with RP. Not to mention that during 25 man raids you will get a lot of RP from rejuvs, Wild growths and disc shields. Subversion is a great dps gain cuz Obliterate critting as much as possible is what you want. Not to mention that the threath reduction will more than likely come in handy when you're bursting for over 30k.

I also can't agree with your starting rotation. I'll shamelessly copy myself (from my own guide) on rotation
IT > Blood Tap + Unbreakable Armor + Hyperspeed Accelerators macro here along with a Plague Strike (this happens at the same time, altho u still need to Blood Tap + Unbreakable Armor before Plague Strike so that the Plague Strike hits a bit harder, free dps is still dps) > OB > PEST (the pestilence here is super important, it will allow you to use blood strike first and then pestilence in the future, eventually saving you time, runes and more importantly making the most of your procs) > HB (if it’s been procced by Rime, if not skip this) > ERW > OB > OB > OB > FS dump > OB > OB > BS > PEST > FS dump as you will have runes on cd > OB > OB > OB > FS dump
I should note that you use HB, whenever Blood runes / Death runes are on CD (both of them) and you have no Killing Machine to exhaust.

And a simplified version w/o explanations

IT > Blood Tap + Unbreakable Armor + Hyperspeed Accelerators +Plague Strike > OB > PEST > HB (if*) > ERW > OB > OB > OB > FS dump > OB > OB > BS > PEST > FS dump > OB > OB > OB > FS dump

Now DO note that that rotation is still very specific to the server I play in but if your rune usage is working correctly @ truewow then using UA before PS and your first OB will be a DPS gain, since your trinkets and other procs, such as ring and cloak (if you're a tailor) will be up.

When it comes to professions Tailoring is a great one as it will line up very well with your STS and since obliterate scales ridiculously well with AP it will beat out Blacksmithing/JWC as a proff in the long run.

The sets you use: If you don't get exactly 1400 arp w/o food/elixir then you are doing a bad job of crafting sets. The way I see it is that there is almost no certain way to determine a BiS set for a frost DK. I currently have ~7, with 2 more being still experimented on (winding sheet play) for arp and out of all of those 3 of them have equalled the same DPS overall. With over 100+ rs/iccs (hc) I got material to compare.

I think that is pmuch all I had to mention, I might be forgetting sth, but anyhow, if you want a link to my guide, I'll send you a PM, since again I wish no advertisement to be made towards the server I play in. Also SS of that 10m (dummy) RC is below:
http://i.imgur.com/LpBhYxg.jpg

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