The silent minority/ 3rd party interest.

[arnis5]

You're not making up stories by saying I'm talking things when you're talking with Rag and not me.
Okay I think it's all making sense now, so good night.

I don't see anywhere that I said that I talked with you.

[Justicelight]

Okay, I understand your point but not perfectly.

"Yeah, we shouldn't whisper anyone,we should let Arnis brainwash every member of Hellraisers"

Why stress out the the base players of a guild? A leader comes and go, I believe Hellraisers had changed few leaders during its history. Why being a factor of influence without expecting retaliation? Arnis is no brainwashing machine, people which are in Hellraisers are still in it because they want to be there, they see a leverage and wants a part of it or they simply don't care what hood they are under.

But I will tell you one thing. You know what kind of people would come to Paramount after receiving an whisper from Paramount?
A) The ones that hate Arnis.
B) The ones that can get easily brainwashed.
C) Players which seek a new Hellraisers under the name of Paramount.

There is something wrong here, I`ll repeat myself. I believe anyone should let players alone, ofcourse anyone can do anything, people are free. If someone keeps doing what they have been doing, they are just asking for it. What are the ones envolved in this mess really want?

Like really, everyone should to stop taunting players by inputing through whispers in their point of view things that concern only the people which left already, and end this fight already? But no, keep taunting on world chat, keep making the other side retaliate then point fingers "look what he did" without damn having the guts to admit the fault in the first place. Everyone has a part of fault, only few admit it.

You are saying you don't want a merge, but people coming from Hellraisers to Paramount by whisper cannot be called a merge ??? Or you want only "certain players" leave Hellraisers, the ones that would hurt the guild the most? Is that what you really want? Hurt or Hellraisers or hurt Arnis? Arnis maybe decides one day to quit, what will be left of Hellraisers? What would the new "guild leader" actually lead? Stop doing this really, and get the facts very clear, or things start to look really shady on one side of the fight.

[Arockalypse]

Altho, the best "merge" story i heard was that Arnis said in guild that i agreed on it if we kick Virdo out.

@Justice, ok.

[kryptos]

Just one of his countless manipulating brain-washing lies he's been selling, and people wonder why we whisper.

So you are saying you will continue to whisper HR players after Liquer just said that Paramount wants to be left alone?

This was your initial insert on this discussion

Agree with Justice, a self sufficient guild, which Paramount believes itself to be, shouldn't need to whisper players from other guilds to join them. If they have faith in themselves, they should allow people to ask for invites on their own.

But now all of the sudden, when I have explained why we did that, you digress on a totally another matter.
Anyway, I'll do what I want, but I won't whisper to players with low or non-existant self respect, as I have previously mentioned in this thread.
And yeah, even if you're too sensitive about the whispers and your only contra-argument is Liq's post, I suggest you check the definition of the word majority.

This will be my last post on this matter since I don't see anything good come of it. But sorry if I assumed that Liquer's comment included you since you are an officer in the guild.
And I did not realize that the answer to why a good guild with faith in itself would ask other guild's members to leave in whispers was, "because their GM brain washing them". Well, what another guild's GM tells its members shouldn't effect you in anyway. The whole point is leaving each other alone.
Please don't talk about self respect. I would say a player who reports to his guild that he was approached by another guild to join them has more self respect than a guy who is trying to get people from other guilds by whispering them.

[exchanger1]

Okay, I understand your point but not perfectly.

"Yeah, we shouldn't whisper anyone,we should let Arnis brainwash every member of Hellraisers"

Why stress out the the base players of a guild? A leader comes and go, I believe Hellraisers had changed few leaders during its history. Why being a factor of influence without expecting retaliation? Arnis is no brainwashing machine, people which are in Hellraisers are still in it because they want to be there, they see a leverage and wants a part of it or they simply don't care what hood they are under.

But I will tell you one thing. You know what kind of people would come to Paramount after receiving an whisper from Paramount?
A) The ones that hate Arnis.
B) The ones that can get easily brainwashed.
C) Players which seek a new Hellraisers under the name of Paramount.

There is something wrong here, I`ll repeat myself. I believe anyone should let players alone, ofcourse anyone can do anything, people are free. If someone keeps doing what they have been doing, they are just asking for it. What are the ones envolved in this mess really want?

Like really, everyone should to stop taunting players by inputing through whispers in their point of view things that concern only the people which left already, and end this fight already? But no, keep taunting on world chat, keep making the other side retaliate then point fingers "look what he did" without damn having the guts to admit the fault in the first place. Everyone has a part of fault, only few admit it.

You are saying you don't want a merge, but people coming from Hellraisers to Paramount by whisper cannot be called a merge ??? Or you want only "certain players" leave Hellraisers, the ones that would hurt the guild the most? Is that what you really want? Hurt or Hellraisers or hurt Arnis? Arnis maybe decides one day to quit, what will be left of Hellraisers? What would the new "guild leader" actually lead? Stop doing this really, and get the facts very clear, or things start to look really shady on one side of the fight.

People are in Hellraisers because they wait for Arnis on friday so he can start making ICC and RS raids, if it wasn't for that, they'd leave already (some of them are, and that number is gonna keep increasing with or without our whispers as they slowly begin to realize things.)
And Justice, you're the one with whose facts are unclear, not me.

[exchanger1]

This will be my last post on this matter since I don't see anything good come of it. But sorry if I assumed that Liquer's comment included you since you are an officer in the guild.
And I did not realize that the answer to why a good guild with faith in itself would ask other guild's members to leave in whispers was, "because their GM brain washing them". Well, what another guild's GM tells its members shouldn't effect you in anyway. The whole point is leaving each other alone.
Please don't talk about self respect. I would say a player who reports to his guild that he was approached by another guild to join them has more self respect than a guy who is trying to get people from other guilds by whispering them.

It does affect me because I have done countless raids with people from hellraisers, and it breaks me down to see that many players there are poisoned by Arnis's lies.
Oh, I don't consider low or no self respect for the ones that report me in /g, just for ones who are dishonest with me in /w and have no balls to tell me to fuck off at least.
Your opinion about self-respect, not like I care

[shaun03]

You're condemning Arnis' supposed propaganda, all the while promoting your own. Time to keep quiet.

[cherno666]

Before publicly posting whisper screenshots , you may think about whispers sent to Para members , consisting of : ''Hey , leave this shit , I'll gear you up in 3 weeks'' , or ''Hey , can you give me account with character in Paramount so I can spy on gchat , I'll carry any of your chars in main LOD run in return'' , and you will get answer why people are getting whispered.

[Liqueur]

Yeah great, I add a perfectly normal post with no fingers pointed at anyone, aiming at peace, and I start being attacked and called out by Arnis and the flame war begins. And then the same person is asking for topic lock when things don't end up going his way.

Apparently I didn't make it clear enough that I was speaking for the MAJORITY of the guild. I wasn't speaking for Arock, I wasn't speaking for Poslednji, I wasn't even speaking for my fiance Chernoo, cause these are like 3 people. They aren't the majority of the guild. I just wanted to present a whole new point of view from our side, as all I can see is that we are the bad guys and we are the ones causing trouble and the ones refusing to make peace. That isn't the case. and if Arock, or Poslednji, or Chernoo, or anyone else from Paramount doesn't agree with my initial post, it's their own business, I did not speak for them, and that doesn't change the credibility of my own post in any way.

Thank you Arnis, I am well aware of pretty much all the conversations that have been going on between the two parties, so yes I am aware of your conversation with Ragnorak as well, and you can't possibly expect me to consider that "plans to merge the guilds". Especially not with all the lies you've been spreading about us wanting Cherno as the guild leader and us wanting Virdo to be kicked and silly ideas like that.

Finally I find it outrageous that you'd claim you want nothing to do with us but just to be left alone when you're still banned for your previous actions as of now. Actions speak louder than words, you should know that by now. It doesn't matter what you preach when your actions show your true colors to the entire server, anyway.

[elementalice]

from what i've learned in my 5-6 years of world of warcraft is that people come and go.no matter what decision gonna take(leadership from HR and Paramaount),one thing remains clear that Hr from one friendly guild had grow into something.about wispers i dont see nthing wrong with it, no1 forcing him to leave guild, he can also switch alliance not to paramount.still with wzw out of the picture is nice to have 2 guilds competing on horde.
most of u have 10000000000000000000000alts so i think u can raid/pvp in the guild u want or side u want depending whos the raid leader/wich people are in qqe,or time zone.
i dont want to judge no1 but arnis acted like a 5 years kid with that id thing.if he want it to look decent and stop this thing, he would ignore all shit going on,wouldnt pay atention to chat,
would lead raids,and guild,'washing brains' .
still i will be member of Hr till they will turn of the light,not because arnis washing brains.every guild cross good times and bad ones.this guild provided me good times, by camping sw for weeks,creating New Ogrimmar,they invited me to first lod of srv, numberous ulduar runs, gearing my noob char.so i think is time to be a part of it atm to.

[belendor]

Let me be clear about a few things.

First off, this topic was made to share my thoughts about the matter(should any1 care). And to stop the constant flame wars on world chat.

Secondly, I did have a chat with certain people about what could be done and looking for a solution. Looking back on the whole issue i've come to the conclusion wounds run 2 deep and most people aren't interested to reunite. This saddens me, at least the shitstorm stopped.

Following this I have decided to keep my neutrality in this matter and I hope people won't take it personal i'm not taking their side, nor should take offense in other people their decision.

Lastly, you can lock this topic, in my eyes people said what they wanted to say, in a somewhat decent manner. Although it was going the wrong way.

I would like to thank the people who shared their thoughts and concerns. Best post was from ubal by far.

[Wilcox]

conclusion: belendor is mine

[Matsy]

Think the only solution is join Wilcox Drug Organisation!

[Wilcox]

about time you understood that

[m0t3k]

Hey, when Carl declined to go to Para, they told him they give flasks. GIVE US FLASKS ARNIS.