Karazhan Illhoof

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natnat123
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Re: Karazhan Illhoof

#46 » Post by natnat123 » 15 Oct 2017 18:38

Fitzpatrick wrote:
15 Oct 2017 16:38
I'm watching this:
https://youtu.be/fWRyS2J0dfo?t=38m33s
and it sure looks like the imps are obeying threat mechanics to me. I typically gain aggro after a Seed hit.
eh? looks to me like they are still attacking other people? ohhh. thats cause 1/2 the time. they still are. on that video.....

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Fitzpatrick
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Re: Karazhan Illhoof

#47 » Post by Fitzpatrick » 15 Oct 2017 19:05

Im not the only one AEing...
The point was you can clearly see that when I gain aggro (bar goes blue to orange) its as a seed hit goes off.
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flosr1
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Re: Karazhan Illhoof

#48 » Post by flosr1 » 15 Oct 2017 19:30

even if it was like this - which i doubt - you did not bring up a single solution for the other bugs that i/we have mentioned.

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natnat123
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Re: Karazhan Illhoof

#49 » Post by natnat123 » 15 Oct 2017 19:44

Fitzpatrick wrote:
15 Oct 2017 19:05
Im not the only one AEing...
The point was you can clearly see that when I gain aggro (bar goes blue to orange) its as a seed hit goes off.
yes it does and the adds still continue to attack someone else

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Anesthesia
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Re: Karazhan Illhoof

#50 » Post by Anesthesia » 15 Oct 2017 21:24

flosr1 wrote:
15 Oct 2017 19:30
even if it was like this - which i doubt - you did not bring up a single solution for the other bugs that i/we have mentioned.
Solution for the bugs is to fix them, not to tune the fight according to them, biggest part of this "tuning required" thread were Imps and their damage. I will assume you were a part of the raid group with a tank who ignored Imps, as you can see here --> http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Terestian_Illhoof , some strategies include 2 tanks for this fight, if your Imps are running uncontrollably, maybe you should employ another tank.
natnat123 wrote:
15 Oct 2017 19:44
Fitzpatrick wrote:
15 Oct 2017 19:05
Im not the only one AEing...
The point was you can clearly see that when I gain aggro (bar goes blue to orange) its as a seed hit goes off.
yes it does and the adds still continue to attack someone else
Imps have cast time, you can see in the video that they will not stop casting, change target and start casting again based on current threat.
No one can see what's in my pocket.

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flosr1
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Re: Karazhan Illhoof

#51 » Post by flosr1 » 15 Oct 2017 21:53

Anesthesia wrote:
15 Oct 2017 21:24
flosr1 wrote:
15 Oct 2017 19:30
even if it was like this - which i doubt - you did not bring up a single solution for the other bugs that i/we have mentioned.
Solution for the bugs is to fix them, not to tune the fight according to them, biggest part of this "tuning required" thread were Imps and their damage. I will assume you were a part of the raid group with a tank who ignored Imps, as you can see here --> http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Terestian_Illhoof , some strategies include 2 tanks for this fight, if your Imps are running uncontrollably, maybe you should employ another tank.
natnat123 wrote:
15 Oct 2017 19:44
Fitzpatrick wrote:
15 Oct 2017 19:05
Im not the only one AEing...
The point was you can clearly see that when I gain aggro (bar goes blue to orange) its as a seed hit goes off.
yes it does and the adds still continue to attack someone else
Imps have cast time, you can see in the video that they will not stop casting, change target and start casting again based on current threat.
Well obviously, you did not read carefully, because then you would probably remember, that we had 20-40 Imps up ALL the time, due to having 3 heavy AOE'ers doing AOE all the time. you really want to tell me YOU can tank 40 Imps without dying?

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Anesthesia
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Re: Karazhan Illhoof

#52 » Post by Anesthesia » 15 Oct 2017 22:21

flosr1 wrote:
13 Oct 2017 15:50
if you call 20-40 imps that are oneshotting dps and healers normal...
20-40 is a rough estimate, if they are indeed running uncontrollably (without a care for aggro), you would wipe in less than a minute (if they can kill players in one hit), can you at least provide a screenshot of this? (I know I would take a SS if for any reason there was a room full of little imps).
Also, I cant find any open bug reports other than https://truewow.org/bugs/view.php?id=6681

Now, before you get edgy, I would ask you to read your own sentence again, "20-40 imps that are oneshotting dps and healers".
How drunk are you in your raids?
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flosr1
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Re: Karazhan Illhoof

#53 » Post by flosr1 » 15 Oct 2017 22:54

so basically you saying that 4 people who posted here and were in that raid AND two other people who weren't and are in another guild just made up this story and are talking bullshit?
good GM behavior...

unfortunately we forgot to make a screenshot.

well maybe it was no oneshotting from the Imps, but at some point, we just got overrun by them, because obviously they were spawning faster than they were supposed to. and yes, it was actually 20-40, i did not really count them. but it was definitely more than 20 and less than 50.

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Re: Karazhan Illhoof

#54 » Post by Anesthesia » 15 Oct 2017 23:34

Dear Mr.FLOSR1
Im mostly quoting you, not the others.
I would suggest you to read trough what you already posted in order to come to a conclusion you will stand behind.
You started this thread, I dont think you can change your claims, there is no proof for this bug (yet).

"Also (and here comes the tuning part) way too many adds are spawning and it feels they also do too much dmg." -flosr1

As the member of your group confirmed, the tank DID NOT care enough to hold aggro on imps (which would be the major problem resulting in as you said dead healers and dps)
Now, if your "TANK" doesnt hold aggro on adds, sooner or later you will run out of available battle resurrections;
- Your DPS players will remain dead = not enough raid DPS = Overrun by adds
- Your Healer will remain dead = not enough healing = adds deal too much damage = everyone dies
And this is not a valid reason for a (here comes the tuning part)!

After all of this "talk" we are still at the same point,
- Kil'Rek doesnt spawn every time
- Chains bug out, and reset to full HP

The rest of what you wrote is either incorrect, not connected to the subject or blown out of proportion (one baloon just got popped with well maybe it was no oneshotting from the Imps).

Now , I dont know who told you this;
flosr1 wrote:
13 Oct 2017 00:19
i have posted similar things like that on the bug tracker before, but was told then not do it because, it is tuning and not bugs. i think in this case it is both.
But you should definitively report bugs using bugtracker, and post suggestions on forums, but try not to mix one with each other, especially when you lack any kind of evidence (of those "less than fucking 50" Imps spawning and running uncontrollably one shotting everyone in the room)

> http://www.innovativelearning.com/teach ... orism.html
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Fitzpatrick
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Re: Karazhan Illhoof

#55 » Post by Fitzpatrick » 15 Oct 2017 23:37

1) Imps spawn fast. They have more health than in 2.0. Its very easy for them to get out of control, fast.
2) You say 9k AE dps. This sounds good, however I think you're getting tricked by the number. To explain what I mean, today we did Illhoof and I had 5500 dps. That sounds great, but the fight was rough and that huge number was more a symbol that the imps were not dying as quickly as they normally do. On very smooth fights I am mostly below 4k dps, simply because the imps are dying fast and there are not as many up to get huge numbers.
3) You said yourself that imps were killing rdps.

Here's what I'm diagnosing. Now, I obviously wasn't there but I'm 99% sure this is what happened to you.

Your ranged DPS let the imps get out of control early or periodically. They got big numbers because there were 8-10 imps up instead of 2-4. Perhaps you're running a UI which shows healthbars of enemies, but perhaps you're running base UI and just using the "V" key functionality, where if you have multiple healthbars up close to you they can really fill the screen and make it look like there were more. With only your description and no recordings or screenshots, its much easier for us to accept this (which is easy to let happen) over some bug which no one else has seen in a combined 50+ kills where more than 2 imps spawn at a time and they have no standard aggro rules. Maybe you think that unfair, but I think Occam would disagree.

Better luck next time!
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Dunkelstein
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Re: Karazhan Illhoof

#56 » Post by Dunkelstein » 16 Oct 2017 01:15

Tank aggro has nothing to do with ranger deaths in our case. The Imps' Firebolts deal negligible damage to rangers while their melee swings hit for 4k (Mail armor). That is why we actively decided NOT to tank them or use melee cleave. There were just too many to tank their melee hits.
What is killing rdps aren't imps themselves, but the fact that they randomly run up to you or even melee you from far away instead of casting. By "loose" imps I didn't refer to aggro, but to those few that for some reason start running out of AoE towards rdps, trying to melee them (instead of just spamming Firebolts).

2-4 imps out were the exception, for all tries that night. I checked Fitz's Kara videos and they just seem to spawn so much slower there. I'll time the spawns on the continued kara on Tuesday. Until then please refrain from insulting people's intellegence by implying they don't know the difference between 10 or 20-40 imps, tyvm.

This is what I meant with the discussion going in circles.
I know what to look out for now, let's cool down until we have some data before people start throwing wobbly dildos at each other
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flosr1
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Re: Karazhan Illhoof

#57 » Post by flosr1 » 16 Oct 2017 02:15

Fitzpatrick wrote:
15 Oct 2017 23:37
1) Imps spawn fast. They have more health than in 2.0. Its very easy for them to get out of control, fast.
2) You say 9k AE dps. This sounds good, however I think you're getting tricked by the number. To explain what I mean, today we did Illhoof and I had 5500 dps. That sounds great, but the fight was rough and that huge number was more a symbol that the imps were not dying as quickly as they normally do. On very smooth fights I am mostly below 4k dps, simply because the imps are dying fast and there are not as many up to get huge numbers.
3) You said yourself that imps were killing rdps.

Here's what I'm diagnosing. Now, I obviously wasn't there but I'm 99% sure this is what happened to you.

Your ranged DPS let the imps get out of control early or periodically. They got big numbers because there were 8-10 imps up instead of 2-4. Perhaps you're running a UI which shows healthbars of enemies, but perhaps you're running base UI and just using the "V" key functionality, where if you have multiple healthbars up close to you they can really fill the screen and make it look like there were more. With only your description and no recordings or screenshots, its much easier for us to accept this (which is easy to let happen) over some bug which no one else has seen in a combined 50+ kills where more than 2 imps spawn at a time and they have no standard aggro rules. Maybe you think that unfair, but I think Occam would disagree.

Better luck next time!
first of all, i have killed this boss in all those weeks i have been active, except a few weeks in august and september, when i did not actively play and i also never experienced something like that. not the chains bug, not the bug with Kil'rek not spawning and not the spawning of so many Imps and them doing melee dmg from a distance and dealing such a big amount of dmg just to everyone randomly. But we had these problems in this raid lockout and last week. I guess you are assuming that we are a bit overreacting - or like Dunkelstein mentioned - assuming we are somewhat unable to count. I am repeating it therefore. We had definitely more than 20 Imps, if you want a realistic number, i would even say it was at least 30 Imps. And no, i did not have enemy health bars activated, not by standard ui and not by an addon. As you might have missed, i am not the only one here that saw more than 2, 4 or 10 Imps. We did not get "overrun" by the Imps, because they were out of control and we did not get overrun by them because our DPS was dying. We had that issue from the very start of the fight, in multiple tries. We had around 9k AOE dps constantly on those Imps from the start of the fight and we had constantly the number of Imps i mentioned, starting a few seconds after we pulled the boss. We were really frustrated and also kinda exhausted after this raid, so no one really thought about making a screenshot and i was just the first who had the idea to talk about it here.

The reason why we decided not to tank those adds, was exactly the same reason why we got overrun. It is just not possible to tank 30 Imps without dying, especially when they did more dmg and another kind of dmg (melee hits instead of fire bolts). No i think that i am not the worst geared tank, but i think thats a bit much dmg. We tried it, but it was not healable anymore at some point (When we had all these 20-40 Imps up)
Anesthesia wrote:
15 Oct 2017 23:34
Dear Mr.FLOSR1
Im mostly quoting you, not the others.
I would suggest you to read trough what you already posted in order to come to a conclusion you will stand behind.
You started this thread, I dont think you can change your claims, there is no proof for this bug (yet).

"Also (and here comes the tuning part) way too many adds are spawning and it feels they also do too much dmg." -flosr1

As the member of your group confirmed, the tank DID NOT care enough to hold aggro on imps (which would be the major problem resulting in as you said dead healers and dps)
Now, if your "TANK" doesnt hold aggro on adds, sooner or later you will run out of available battle resurrections;
- Your DPS players will remain dead = not enough raid DPS = Overrun by adds
- Your Healer will remain dead = not enough healing = adds deal too much damage = everyone dies
And this is not a valid reason for a (here comes the tuning part)!

After all of this "talk" we are still at the same point,
- Kil'Rek doesnt spawn every time
- Chains bug out, and reset to full HP

The rest of what you wrote is either incorrect, not connected to the subject or blown out of proportion (one baloon just got popped with well maybe it was no oneshotting from the Imps).

> http://www.innovativelearning.com/teach ... orism.html
the balloon did not get popped, you rather sticked a pin into it. because in all that chaos we had in all these tries with all these combined bugs, i wasn't really able to watch how many hits it took for the people to die. Maybe it was 1, maybe 2. Does it really matter? With replies like that you are just making a fool out of yourself.

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Theblomb
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Re: Karazhan Illhoof

#58 » Post by Theblomb » 16 Oct 2017 08:33

Please return to this post once you have something reproduceable, otherwise it's hard to help.

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dgreenbe
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Re: Karazhan Illhoof

#59 » Post by dgreenbe » 16 Oct 2017 10:05

I've done 2k-3k AOE dps as bear tank and, tried taunting, and it doesn't really matter. Their aggro mechanics are broken and theit melee hits are way too hard, especially on cloth. The fact that they aggrod to a warlock based on seed hitting doesn't detract at all from the report that compares them to the mana wyrms and states that ability usage is influential in acquiring aggro but not determinative and not in correlation to the threat of the abilities used.

If imps can insta-gib an enhance shaman who uses zero aoe threat-generating abilities other than dropping totems, then the most important factor in this boss encounter is not skill or gear or spec or consumes, but praying to jesus. And unfortunately it seems jesus only loves a couple guilds.

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natnat123
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Re: Karazhan Illhoof

#60 » Post by natnat123 » 18 Oct 2017 00:37

@everyone

read mah bug report

https://truewow.org/bugs/view.php?id=6694

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