[Rejected] Reduce PvP Gear Cost {PW}

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Dreadnought101
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Re: PvP

#16 » Post by Dreadnought101 » 18 Oct 2017 11:02

A bit off-topic Still would be nice to have legacy PvP season rewards (season4,season5, season6) to be purchasable with honor points/badge of justice for Transmogs...because transmogs are everything..! of course do it 1.5 seasons later.
Degaris
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Dreadnought101
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PvP Gear costs proposal

#17 » Post by Dreadnought101 » 01 Feb 2018 11:32

This is a proposal to help with several issues in acquiring PvP gear at multiple levels.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

To summarise

1) Beginner itemization
new players get annihilated when joining PvP, and theres very little incentive to play 10-20 bgs to get 1 peice of gear (since most often new players cant even get 1k honor in that 2v2 wsg lets be real, and that call to arms comes so far and few in between). This proposal will significantly reduce the costs of preseason tier pieces, weapons, off peice S1 gear by 90% so new players can acquire a piece every 1-3 bgs. loosing 20 bgs in order to get 1 piece is not conducive for player retention. This will get a player geared in almost every slot, not just the 5 set peices in order to have a fighting chance.

2) Intermediate itemization
Reduce costs by 20-40% for S1 tier pieces, S2 off pieces yet will still require many bgs and time commitment in order to fully itemize with a sense of progression and reachable goals along the way. Further, S1 arena gear, S2 librams/totems/idols and wands/thrown are now easily attainable after 1-3 weeks of arena gear as a way to hook players that would not normally be interested in arena to give it a try and rewarding them for giving arena a chance.

3) Advanced itemization
Currently there are no ranking requirements for any gear, so there is no notoriety for having a certain piece of arena set gear and weapons. Next each piece is incredibly expensive for the majority of arena goers. most teams can only get 304 points every week if they play 10+ games since arena points do not start scaling up until you pass 1500 ranking, yet with the very low player base there is not much opportunity to get many teams above this point, lowering the costs of arena gear will increase the flow of items to the majority of arena goers while still rewarding the very top end of the arena players with the very high costs and rank requirement of weapons.
Degaris
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Dunkelstein
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Re: PvP Gear costs proposal

#18 » Post by Dunkelstein » 02 Feb 2018 13:52

1) :cross:
Beginners are best of grinding reputation to buy the Resilience Set from TBC Factions, there is no need to adjust prices for the Rare Honor Sets. In fact, they should probably be removed completely to avoid confusion for new players, but if they waste their own points without researching their options first that's on them anyway.
So since in theory everybody has a free full Set, it is the OFF-SET pieces that should be reduced in cost.

2) :arrowl: :arrow:
I can see the point in helping new PvPers more and getting them hooked, all other PvPers automatically benefit because it will fill more BGs/low arenas.

3) :cross:
There are no ranking requirements, but the sheer amount of points itself that is required for the gear is the notoriety.
It's hard to get the high-end items because there is not much of a scene.

But just because there aren't many people in arenas right now doesn't mean we should be giving everyone the gear for 'free'.
It is High-End for a reason, they are trophy items. Only the best in pvp are supposed to have them, and without a scene to prove themselves there just are no 'best'.

Spoiler:
My opinion on the matter aside, but still on topic:
<Exalted Reputation> will be hosting weekly PvP events starting next Tuesday 20:00ST.
Tuesday is the last night before the weekly arena point flush. That's prime time for EU players and when it gets late NA will take over. We will all play in the 2v2 bracket and keep going until atleast every team has 10 weekly games. The other brackets would reward more arena points, but 2v2 is the only bracket that has a feasible future outside of these events.

I am aware that many people still have zero resilience gear and will get kicked in the nuts 10 games in a row. Nobody is going to ask you to keep playing after that. Still, while the rest are bashing each other's heads in the arenas, you can queue WSG after your 10 games and you will still get the weekly arena points and eventually catch up with Honor gear.

Two goals:
-Get close-to-BiS weapons for PvE (Compare weapon damage https://truewow.org/armory/item.php?item=31986&realm=p and https://truewow.org/armory/item.php?item=30105&realm=p )
-Build a 2v2 scene that can branch out to more than just 10 games on Tuesday night
-Fun

More on that soon
Aka Funkelstein

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Dreadnought101
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Re: PvP Gear costs proposal

#19 » Post by Dreadnought101 » 02 Feb 2018 18:44

Dunkelstein wrote:
02 Feb 2018 13:52
1)
Beginners are best of grinding reputation to buy the Resilience Set from TBC Factions, there is no need to adjust prices for the Rare Honor Sets. In fact, they should probably be removed completely to avoid confusion for new players, but if they waste their own points without researching their options first that's on them anyway.
So since in theory everybody has a free full Set, it is the OFF-SET pieces that should be reduced in cost.
I think people are quick to forget that the reputation items need revered requirement and thats just for 1 piece, and you need 5 reputation factions revered for it. Also having the preseason gear allows double stacking of set bonuses for resilience. Same for weapons, you can get resilience weapons in dungeons
Off set pieces HAVE been reduced, look at belt/boots/bracer/neck/cloak in S1. There are no off set pieces in preseason besides rings (which have been reduced) and trinkets (theres a lvl 60 trinket that can have you covered, + many pve trinkets to choose from)
Dreadnought101 wrote:
01 Feb 2018 11:32
3)
There are no ranking requirements, but the sheer amount of points itself that is required for the gear is the notoriety.
It's hard to get the high-end items because there is not much of a scene.

But just because there aren't many people in arenas right now doesn't mean we should be giving everyone the gear for 'free'.
It is High-End for a reason, they are trophy items. Only the best in pvp are supposed to have them, and without a scene to prove themselves there just are no 'best'.
that 'sheer' amount of points takes 6-7 weeks FOR 1 PIECE OF GEAR, I am reducing this requirement to 3-5 weeks per gear, with gloves having no ranking requirement and shoulders only being 2 weeks as a ranking requirement more then a point requirement, the chest/head/legs will cost both requirements and points still. I have also kept costs for S2 weapons the same in order to have that 'arena sink' for points/rankings as the final endgame. S1 weapons will also 2-3 weeks to gear.


Did you look at my spreadsheet? because I feel I have already addressed all these points with the numbers in there.
Degaris
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Bradonja
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Re: PvP Gear costs proposal

#20 » Post by Bradonja » 04 Feb 2018 13:39

No offense Degaris, but PvP is not a fun little thing that you do on the side when you're bored of PvE (maybe you see it like that, but some of us take it seriously, though admittedly it's a bit of a joke on ol' Primal).
There's a reason Blizzard made arena gear hard to get - in retail TBC it was not even available for honor points until it was outdated by 2 seasons. And even then most pieces cost well over 50k honor.

On primal right now you can get what's essentially BiS PvP gear (S1 set, which btw took me the entire last season to obtain with arena points, and I was over 2000 rating for most of the season) for very obtainable honor costs.
During BG weekends getting over 50k honor in a few hours is not unheard of, but yes you have to actually do BGs for that. The actual TBC honor grind was much slower than that. I play on 2.4.3 servers where honor gain is doubled and BGs are popping 24/7 and it's STILL much slower than primal.
Current season (S2) arena gear is pretty much unobtainable with the amount of arenas going on right now, even if you're serious about PvP, so when you invest some time in BGs and get that S1 set no one can blame gear for their bad performance anymore.

You already have free PvP gear in the form of the blue set available at faction vendors (btw it's honored not revered). The stats may seem weak compared to some high-end PvE gear (it's heavy on resilience as that's the most important PvP stat for most classes - it has almost as much as the S1 arena set, at the cost of having less offensive stats), but I assure you it's good enough to not hold you back from winning in PvP with the correct spec. My druid wears that set almost exclusively and people regularly complain that I'm impossible to kill (thanks Semper for the ridiculous 40% mana cost reduction across the board). But yeah, shockingly, gear won't help you much in PvP if you're uninformed and up againt players who know what they're doing.


TLDR: We already have free entry-level PvP gear at honored with the 5 TBC dungeon factions (2-3 of which most people get without even trying on their way to 70). Gladiator gear for honor is already a massive step in making high-end PvP gear more obtainable, Natnat did a fine job, no need to take it further than that where S1 set is concerned.

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Dreadnought101
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Re: PvP Gear costs proposal

#21 » Post by Dreadnought101 » 11 Feb 2018 10:49

Bradonja wrote:
04 Feb 2018 13:39
No offense Degaris, but PvP is not a fun little thing that you do on the side when you're bored of PvE (maybe you see it like that, but some of us take it seriously, though admittedly it's a bit of a joke on ol' Primal).
There's a reason Blizzard made arena gear hard to get - in retail TBC it was not even available for honor points until it was outdated by 2 seasons. And even then most pieces cost well over 50k honor.
The honor economy flow is literally not a 5th of what you see on much more active servers and what live pulled.
Admittedly honor can flow quite well for the dedicated few here, and im thinking of revising season 1, 2 honor prices, I think current prices are somewhat fine (with only 10-25% reductions intead of 50%-75%)
We can start having multiple levels of arena gear once we hit season 3, the pre-season gear and season 1 gear is incomplete and compliment eachother rather then directly upgrading (besides the set pieces and weapons themselves) which makes things somewhat confusing.
Bradonja wrote:
04 Feb 2018 13:39
On primal right now you can get what's essentially BiS PvP gear (S1 set, which btw took me the entire last season to obtain with arena points, and I was over 2000 rating for most of the season) for very obtainable honor costs.
During BG weekends getting over 50k honor in a few hours is not unheard of, but yes you have to actually do BGs for that. The actual TBC honor grind was much slower than that. I play on 2.4.3 servers where honor gain is doubled and BGs are popping 24/7 and it's STILL much slower than primal.
Current season (S2) arena gear is pretty much unobtainable with the amount of arenas going on right now, even if you're serious about PvP, so when you invest some time in BGs and get that S1 set no one can blame gear for their bad performance anymore.
Earning tier gear during a season is like a limited timed reward, you had gear during S1 that nobody else was able to obtain, and you shredded battlegrounds at the time with that advantage (I bet there are still very few players with a set of season 1 gear by this point anyway).

I admit that my cost reductions for Season 1 main pieces and season 2 off pieces honor gear was extreme, but lets talk about obtainable honor costs. There is a massive difference between honor gains by skilled players and the rest of the playerbase on the server. You dont have 10v10s to dilute honor gains and your get more kills that net 10-30 honor to
everyone, here you get 2v2s where kills net 50-100 honor, and any difference in gear (because difference in skill mostly means having better gear anyway) is much more extreme. we are talking winning teams getting 2k honor with loosing teams barely scrapping 500 honor, and usually the top killers taking the lionshare by surviving and confirming kills, and new players on loosing teams literally getting that 230 honor because they cant even stay alive long enough to participate in an honor kill, this is why my costs proposal for pre-season gear/weps and season 1 off-pieces is so low is that this gear is not meant for you are I, we have better things were already going for, its for alts and for new players entering in.
Bradonja wrote:
04 Feb 2018 13:39
You already have free PvP gear in the form of the blue set available at faction vendors (btw it's honored not revered). The stats may seem weak compared to some high-end PvE gear (it's heavy on resilience as that's the most important PvP stat for most classes - it has almost as much as the S1 arena set, at the cost of having less offensive stats), but I assure you it's good enough to not hold you back from winning in PvP with the correct spec. My druid wears that set almost exclusively and people regularly complain that I'm impossible to kill (thanks Semper for the ridiculous 40% mana cost reduction across the board). But yeah, shockingly, gear won't help you much in PvP if you're uninformed and up againt players who know what they're doing.
(*Not sure how I said revered gear, totally meant honored*)
the stats for the reputation gear is LITERALLY the same as pre-season gear, so why is the preseason gear 15.3k honor for each piece? kind of insane for alts and new players that just want to pvp and not rep grind (but still rewarding players for double stacking the 2 set +35res bonus that is very popular).

Again, my Pre-season costs are focused on gearing new players quickly while taking into consideration just how little honor they gain to get a resilience piece in each slot in order to have a base foundation to work with. You and I will never go for this gear as its already irrelevant to us.

-Im not convinced that pre-season gear and off-piece season 1 prices should have the cost they have now and should be cut by 70-95%.
-I do agree that cutting the season 1, season 2 honor prices was extreme, maybe a slight cut, but not what it was before.
-No comments on Season 2 arena gear

No offense Bradonja but the proposal to pre-season gear has nothing to do with you as its irrelevant already to top players and their gearing process.
Degaris
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Dreadnought101
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Re: PvP Gear costs proposal

#22 » Post by Dreadnought101 » 14 Feb 2018 04:33

(Revised some cost proposals, increasing amounts, and increased some Season 2 off pieces for honor sinks since i have all the mounts anyway...totally not biased)
Degaris
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Re: PvP Gear costs proposal

#23 » Post by Dreadnought101 » 18 Feb 2018 07:21

So I posted a questionnaire form about changing prices up or down for different levels of gear https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1-JL8Kf ... #responses

After 11 solid responses, the general consensus is:
-Preseason gear to be vastly reduced in costs, everyone agreed that prices needed to be reduced, and 50% stated that it should be reduced to 2-5k prices while the remainder stating some

-Season 1 librams/totem/idol: majority state should be reduced to 5k honor
-Season 1 Thrown/Wand: half stated prices are fine while the other half noted it should be reduced in arena cost or be made into an honor price.
-Season 1 Off-pieces (belt/bracer/boot/neck/cloak): Majority agreed should be reduced, with it averaging out to around 5-8k honor prices
-Season 1 Weapons: Majority agree it should be reduced to 1500 arena points for 2H and total if getting two 1H (I would prefere 800/870 personally)

-Season 2 off-pieces: Most say prices are fine (though I feel they should be raised a bit to compensate for other prices getting reduced and veteran players something to do with bgs)
-Season 2 libram/idol/toem: Everyone agrees it should be reduced, Majority think it should be reduced to 500/250 arena points

I even made a pretty paint art on it (try to ignore season 3, that was me and some friends speculating) https://i.imgur.com/580d25l
Degaris
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Re: PvP Gear costs proposal

#24 » Post by cts17 » 22 Feb 2018 00:37

I just want to add in that I support Degaris' attempts to revitalize PvP. I can only commit around 15-18 hours a week to WoW, and as roughly 12 hours are taken up raiding, and 4 hours by dailies, I don't get into PvP that much. So any attempts to alleviate that burden and also encourage still others to join in would be wonderful.

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Re: PvP Gear costs proposal

#25 » Post by Majikana » 17 Mar 2018 23:39

My thoughts as a recent 70, gearing just for pvp:

First: Leveling with 3x experience, you hit 70 without high level professions, reputations, or quest rewards. Thus, getting the gear for even mid-60s dungeons can be hard. Some factions let you quest your way up to purchase gear, which also gives you gold, but some require dungeon runs which can be very hard to organize. Similarly, things like Ring of Blood or 2-3 man quests that reward better than normal gear can be difficult to complete with the population what it is. I think this problem could be fixed by adding reputation point rewards somehow, like via non-heroic RDF or slightly (1.3x) increasing quest reward reputation gain for certain factions. This would help both pve and pvp gearing, but at a VERY low level. This could increase the rate of RDF queuing. While profession leveling could be increased, I think it's important to drive the economy at 1x.

Second: Losing BGs (Meaning, WSG) does reward much less honor than Blizzlike. In a normal 10v10, as an ungeared player, you could help your team by using your utility to peel and support healers or top damage dealers. In a 2v2, there isn't room for this kind of play. Some players can get 50k honor in a few hours of WSG, or even 200k honor in a CTA weekend. Unfortunately, WSG weekend doesn't come around that often, and the rewards are heavily skewed to the winners. This skew is both in the victory, and also in the honorable kill count. I think this is good. Winning should be rewarded in pvp. However, in a 10v10 game you'd still getting much more kill honor while losing than the current 2v2s. I'm still thinking of how to solve this issue that doesn't incentivize throwing games, but maybe changes to how HKs have diminishing returns on honor could help, along with a small flat increase to losing honor.

Third: Arena points are a rare currency where it takes a month to get a single piece. On PW, players work to make sure every alt has their 10 games in, without focus on winning or losing or competition. This both devalues arena in general, and doesn't sharpen player skills. I think a change should be made here to increase competition, increase arena point rewards (but not too much) to winners of the competition, and reduce non-competitive 10 game trading. Not sure what yet...
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Majikana
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Re: PvP Gear costs proposal

#26 » Post by Majikana » 26 Mar 2018 04:40

I've changed my mind on honor rewards/pricing- I started gearing during WSG call to arms, with a 5% win rate. Now, as I get gear, I'm winning way more games which I thought would send my honor per game skyrocketing.

It hasn't sky rocketed.

Having no impact on a game, being a drag on your team, that's no fun. Even demolishing another team? Fun for a short while, but after a time, especially when it's generally 2v2 and you know you are personally slowing down your guild mates progress, that's no fun.

I think S1 gear should have it's honor cost drastically reduced. Maybe leave Veteran's gear at near full price, to keep it something that separates the casual from the hardcore. Reducing S1 honor cost and increasing honor gain would also allow players to gear their offspec. This isn't pre-raid BiS where you can get by with missing pieces and your guild will help you out - it's the opposite. Any difference in gear has an outsized, negative impact that I think could be fixed with ~2x honor gain, and 33% reduction in Gladiator's gear cost.
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