Enchancement shamans and their lack of defensive cds..

Discuss Player versus Player mechanics and tactics with both stout friends and vanquished foes from the battlefield.
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zleipps
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Enchancement shamans and their lack of defensive cds..

#1 » Post by zleipps » 11 Sep 2015 13:10

I have played as enchancement shaman for more than 8yrs so I can tell when a class is broken or not when it comes to defending themselves against other classes. Shamans are probably the worst pick what so ever when it comes to playing pvp and this is kinda sad actually because i love the nice feeling recking as an enchancement shaman. Anyhow the reason why they're probably the worst pick for pvp is due to the lack of defensive cds. In WOTLK shamans are based on their talents to survive that was available in WOTLK to face the amount of damage enemies throws at them & also to counter them with their own burst but this isn't possible because they die before they even get to hit someone.. Lets take Shamanistic rage for an example, that's a huge factor for shamans to survive the insane damage made by enemy classes on this expansion. Sure, it lasts for 15 seconds but that can be nerfed. Hunters have deterrence x2 + disengage x2 (which isn't vanilla), mages have (iceblock & icebarrier which isn't vanilla), priests has their ridiculous power word shield that is highly buffed in wotlk, warlocks also have defensive wotlk cds/abilities but i just can't come up with any name right now but I know they do, I dont have to keep going do I? If you dont want people to have wotlk talents why do they have wotlk abilities? I dont get it. Atleast give shamans a def cd that's all i'm asking for otherwise they'll be damned from playing pvp as enchancement on "this vanilla expansion"

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.aspirine101
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Re: Enchancement shamans and their lack of defensive cds..

#2 » Post by .aspirine101 » 11 Sep 2015 13:43

Since I have played Enhancement pvp + Resto pve sham on pretty much every WotLK server I support this.

Shamanistic rage needs to be back. Period. And no nerfing it not even a single second.
I remember when I was PvP'ing, I used shamanistic rage usually to refill mana than to reduce damage though. In arenas some fights can be quite long and I will run out of mana fast. This won't be the case here due to no resilience however. But no resilience = you take truckloads of damage. Enemies will kill you in a single stun duration, and here comes shama rage to save your ass.

When I PvP'd, the main abilities I relied on to survive were actually Maelstrom Weapon and Glyph of Stoneclaw Totem. There's no maelstrom and no glyph either, so enhas are EXTREMELY vulnerable.

Feral Spirit used to be such a cool ability, those wolves have everything you need, a speed buff that removes all roots/slows when used, very good heal over time for you, they also periodically stun and on top of that they deal truckloads of damage.

With a 5.8k geared enhance shaman on Molten or TrueWoW, I exit ICC and find a 6,8k war with Shadowmourne waiting for me. He obviously proceeded to attack and I thought all is lost. I used feral spirit, they stunned him and gave me the movement speed increase, I ran away and he was after me, trying to catch me while the wolves eat his sorry ass. He died before he even got to me and I was on full HP because of the wolves' healing.
If you bring back the wolves I imagine you'll need to decrease their damage, but only their damage. With no resilience they can kill even 2 people while you are 10000000 miles away because of the speed buff.

no glyph of stoneclaw = enh is useless for short and long fights
no maelstrom = enh is useless for long fights.
Bring back at least 1 of these because otherwise he's completely useless.
Thorbjorn (master of xD)

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Shave
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Re: Enchancement shamans and their lack of defensive cds..

#3 » Post by Shave » 11 Sep 2015 13:46

You have to accept what you have, they are not going to add certain spells or skills.PvP is broken, everybody knows, nobody cares.

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.aspirine101
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Re: Enchancement shamans and their lack of defensive cds..

#4 » Post by .aspirine101 » 11 Sep 2015 13:50

Shave wrote:You have to accept what you have, they are not going to add certain spells or skills.PvP is broken, everybody knows, nobody cares.
RIP Enhancement Shaman.

Lets gather all the specs that are RIP, assemble a big list of them and mourn them for a few minutes.

I bet all other shama specs are RIP too btw.
Thorbjorn (master of xD)

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Garland
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Re: Enchancement shamans and their lack of defensive cds..

#5 » Post by Garland » 11 Sep 2015 17:55

I agree - Every spec of shaman is terrible because they cannot survive. No earthshield/thunderstorm/shamanistic rage. Locks/Mages/Priests are the only viable classes for high end pvp, because they have all the tools they need while other classes don't get them till later (cyclone/hex/etc...) I don't know if the devs have anything planned to help the situation or not, but they probably won't implement abilities that aren't due till later expansions. Although, I kind of wish they would. It might be the only way to balance pvp. Druids without cyclone...lmao

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useronly
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Re: Enchancement shamans and their lack of defensive cds..

#6 » Post by useronly » 11 Sep 2015 19:19

Enhancement shamans are better than they were in actual vanilla, but they are still bad, just like they were before. I don't really know why anyone would expect any different and then want the devs to go and try and balance a spec that was and should be bad at this stage of the game. Sure, it would be nice, but it's not going to happen. Each attempt to balance will be met with countervailing pleas to buff other aspects of some other class because now the fix has shifted the scales elsewhere. The reality is that even with the talent and spell changes, this server resembles vanilla-like balance. Vanilla wow, however, never had anything that resembled equality with respect to spec choices for every class. Some classes had multiple viable spec choices, others were more limited. Enhancement was one of them. Same with ret paladins.

I honestly think shamans as casters and healers are in a decent spot. As gear progresses, they'll continue to scale really well. That and I just don't think there are any exceptional and properly geared shamans that can actually weigh in on the balance issues.

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Apathetic
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Re: Enchancement shamans and their lack of defensive cds..

#7 » Post by Apathetic » 11 Sep 2015 23:49

Locks/Mages/Priests
No shadowfury, no incinerate, no UA, no chaos bolt, no 0.8 R1 frostbolt, no deep, no elemental, no dispersion, no psychic horror, no unsnare on fade, I could go on but I think you got my point, just because you're missing some vital spells doesn't mean other classes aren't, and just because they are slightly more important for viability than those of other classes it doesn't mean you should get them; as the person above said, you do with what you have.
Parallel

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Garland
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Re: Enchancement shamans and their lack of defensive cds..

#8 » Post by Garland » 12 Sep 2015 00:21

Apathetic - You're all upset that I mentioned locks/mages/priests being OP (something that everyone agrees with) So, I go to check on your arena team. What do you know? You play a priest and your partner is a mage. Nice 11-18 record by the way - you probably don't know much about balancing pvp. Anyways, my main isn't a shaman, it's the rank 1 priest, and I WANT them to get nerfed or other classes to get buffed.

Maybe come back to the forums and talk about balancing pvp when you understand it a little better and at least have a 50% win ratio.

If you simply don't want pvp to be balanced just say that and leave this forum post.

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lokabi
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Re: Enchancement shamans and their lack of defensive cds..

#9 » Post by lokabi » 12 Sep 2015 01:00

I am not sure about the statement of enhancement being better than in vanilla on this server when it comes to PvP. One of the biggest things about enhancement PvP in vanilla was that you could oneshot any class, in any spec, them having any gear. Aside from that enhancement PvP was shit, but thouse moments made it fun, atleast. BUT! you can not do that anymore since WotLK added enternal cooldown to windfury, so it cant proc from itself anymore.

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zleipps
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Re: Enchancement shamans and their lack of defensive cds..

#10 » Post by zleipps » 12 Sep 2015 02:47

Useronly - Shamans are pretty much the same as they were back in the actual vanilla, the only thing that has changed is the increased damage but they've never been bad in any real expansions that i've played. I dont know how bad you were playing as a shaman but i know for fact that i rekkt ballz in pretty much every expansion out there.
Enchancement shaman's damage is buffed like every other classes out there & the damage brought by an enchancement shaman is actually above average, so the main issue isn't really about their damage. However the main issue is that every shamans problem comes with the lack of defensive cds, let's take the enchancement shaman for an example, they can't even get to their enemy before dying. People pop their burst and even tho IF a shaman manages to get close to some random enemy there will still be defensive cds used from their enemy target, these defensive cds are most likely not vanilla abilities. So i dont see the point in keeping disengage/deterrence for an example, icebarrier etc etc if shamans are not allowed to have wotlk defensive cds. Is that by anyway fair? I wouldn't say it is.

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useronly
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Re: Enchancement shamans and their lack of defensive cds..

#11 » Post by useronly » 12 Sep 2015 03:26

Enhancement shaman were definitely bad in vanilla, to which my post alludes to, as that is the content I was referring to. They had no survivability and had to rely on pumping out damage as quickly as possible. That remains to be the case, but now you have frozen power and instant ghostwolf to close gaps quicker, which shamans did not have before. The damage is still there, and with addition of shear, casters can still get wrecked if the gaps are actually closed. This is pretty much a basic vanilla enhancement problem, but with slightly better tools to get on top of other players. Though I can see your point as to hunters disengage and deterrence, throwing in ice barrier doesn't make sense--that's a vanilla talent from day 1. Point is, no class is substantially different from vanilla other than hunters who had critical stuff added/reworked. Adding survivability to enhancement would deviate from that trend. Using a single class as precedent doesn't justify that change.

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Apathetic
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Re: Enchancement shamans and their lack of defensive cds..

#12 » Post by Apathetic » 12 Sep 2015 04:58

Apathetic - You're all upset that I mentioned locks/mages/priests being OP (something that everyone agrees with) So, I go to check on your arena team. What do you know? You play a priest and your partner is a mage. Nice 11-18 record by the way - you probably don't know much about balancing pvp. Anyways, my main isn't a shaman, it's the rank 1 priest, and I WANT them to get nerfed or other classes to get buffed.
I don't know what part of my post made you think I was upset, I was trying to be direct and to the point; I'm not trying to defend priests or mages, I'm just trying to give you a more general view of the current game, even if you are one of the classes most affected by the loss of high level spells and talents from wotlk.

Before you try to bash my skills or experience in pvp I will tell you that most (all) of the games you see in my current arena team were played over the span of 2 days in which not only was I laggy but my partner was also laggy at times, and in which we played vs teams who significantly outgeared us and played to do dmg straight off the bat, not to mention that my partner is also relatively new at mage and he's still learning much.

On the other hand I've played plenty with him and he's an excellent priest, I am a seasoned wotlk pvper myself and have played teams with over 50 or 100 games and over 93% winrate and in which I played against not only 2 teams (like I did on that team you looked up) but 20 or more; so come bash me when you have 80-0 score teams or whatever. Nice try bashing a random stranger on forums though.

inb4 I'm lying etc

[hide]Some of my teams from latest season on our sister server before I stopped playing there momentarily:
http://www.truewow.org/armory/arenateam ... 0orderings
http://www.truewow.org/armory/arenateam ... 0is%20hard
http://www.truewow.org/armory/arenateam ... o%20luchis [started playing that one with no gear at all][/hide]
Parallel

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.majstorfanta
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Re: Enchancement shamans and their lack of defensive cds..

#13 » Post by .majstorfanta » 12 Sep 2015 11:22

Enchancement cant be played, but trust me resto can easily be awesome healer and for elemental i didnt try it yet but i know I crit with bad gear almost 1k shocks, that with fire nova buffed can be great
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.Sorrugis
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Re: Enchancement shamans and their lack of defensive cds..

#14 » Post by .Sorrugis » 12 Sep 2015 16:21

zleipps wrote:mages have (iceblock & icebarrier which isn't vanilla)
What version of vanilla were you playing?

You had to spec into it, but it was definitely there.
Pliny
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zleipps
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Re: Enchancement shamans and their lack of defensive cds..

#15 » Post by zleipps » 12 Sep 2015 19:45

Was confused whether icebarrier or iceblock was vanilla so i just typed whatever. Strange though that I didn't noticed it untill now but ust checked it up so ya you're right. Still believe there's a few wotlk def cds remained as mages? Like their reset on frost cds for an example?

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