Subtlety Rogue Dueling guide

Discuss Player versus Player mechanics and tactics with both stout friends and vanquished foes from the battlefield.
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Floss
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Subtlety Rogue Dueling guide

#1 » Post by Floss » 13 Feb 2016 22:42

Hola,
So i was thinking about giving out tips for Rogue dueling.

As you all know, Rogues are a very special class that can master almost anything in PVP.
All tips given in this guide are pointed to players that know basic rogue dueling routine (stun locking , full open and etc)
Basic tips :

1) Always know your enemy's abilities and cooldowns :
In every duel , you must play according to your cds + your enemy's cds , which means that you have to know what they have used and haven't used yet in the duel , Thusly, you choose your abilities in the best way possible.

2) Spec/talent tree :
I won't discuss specs/gears in this topic but it's important to mention that if you pick a spec, you must fully understand it and know why u picked every single ability in it and also , if you're 100% into dueling , pick a dueling spec not a bg/arena one .
As for poisons – your basic is Wound for mainhand and Crippling for Offhand.
On casters, use mind numbing. That's it.

3) The Angle trick :
Before we start, I must make sure that you guys know the angle trick cause most opens are based on it . basically it's about sapping a player and opening behind him while standing in a 70-90° angle from his back , you can either sap+cheap shot to increase combo points or sap + garrote + rupture then open to apply early bleed and gain a good advantage .
Here's a demonstration of it: ( watch the videos in HD)


Angle trick – stun ( mostly to add cps before duel)
[youtube]CaRzD7QXrZM[/youtube]

Angle trick – bleeds
[youtube]AoNUSX75z0E[/youtube]

Angle trick – bleeds & Dance (A nice damaging start)
[youtube]FgAcxPZb6hc[/youtube]

If you didn't know this trick before , you need to practice it before dueling.
4) Best tip in this Guide :
Learn your class and learn to improvise. yep that’s pretty much it, even if you fully understand my guide , you still need to deal with the fact that every duel is different and you have to use your head and reflexes alot.
It all comes down to knowing the class and having experience which I can't give you here.

5) DR(Diminishing Returns) :
If you don't know what this is , learn it .

Let's get to business :

Rogue vs Rogue
You need only vanish, blind and trinket for this duel. Disarm can be useful too.
Assuming you both went stealthy and popped fok, vanish+stun right away.
If he blinds you, there's a way to reverse that advantage:
Trinket & blind him right away and wait … Open hard on him but watch his trinket , he's probably going to wait for your kidney so basically you disarm him before you hit kidney and bam , he got nothing to do but take dmg for another 3-4 secs . During that you can bleed and run away and that's how you turn the cards around ;-) .
This duel is usually determined by the first opener but always stay sharp and try to improvise.

Now lets say the Rogue opens on you in another way(with a stun or sap) , it's going to be hard to reverse this but it's all about your reflexes . after you trinket and open on him , you really need to watch his trinket carefully , most Rogues just Predict on like - like vanish right after hitting Cheap or Kidney , Don't do that .Just try to practice this . Also if you have blind saved , that could be useful.

Also , Finding other rogues depends on talents and gear.


Rogue vs Ret Paladin
Usually start with Angle trick + bleeds , dance and stunlock , Pala will probably save hands of freedom for second stun . Theres a way to trick him , basically start with angle trick + bleeds and dance but instead of Cheap shot , Ambush him then cheap shot right away , he might think that you stunned him twice and pop freedom , that’s where you kidney and gg . it's a risky trick cause he might dmg you hard before first stun or turn out to be familiar with the trick. Your call…
Another way is to use Evis after the Cheap and not kindey , this way you do more dmg since kindey is useless when the pala uses hof. also , Pala will be on edge waiting for the kidney that will never happen :)
After the first open , Use disarm to avoid serious dmg and stay on him , usually paladins use Repentance and heal up , Don't use trinket cause they will hammer you and and finish you off . However , some rogues trinket the Hammer and pop cloak , it blocks the hammer but a good pala knows not to use the hammer if he sees the cloak .
If you feel like you have to pop blind and the pala hasn't used trinket yet , just stand infront of him and gouge his trinket like a Boss!
Also keep evasion on after stuns fade/end.

About Bubble ... if the pala pops it and keeps it hide and wait to reopen.


Rogue vs Frost Mage
Mages and Rogues have the exact opposite cooldowns when it comes to dueling , meaning - you must watch his cooldowns and act accordingly at every step.
Best is to start with a stun, mage will probably blink on it or on the next, you must vanish, step and continue on him and hopefully he'll use iceblock , if not , he'll probably use it when you pop Cloak . Once he's used it , stay in front of him and wait for a gouge , you can use First aid while you do so . Skilled mages usually break the duration by cancelling it, so look carefully.
Your shadow dance becomes viable since he has no other defense.
Cold snap – it's a bitch no doubt , but your prep is exactly the same… ;)
The only thing you need to trinket is deep freeze , only when you see him casting , trinket it, Cloak and finish him.
You have to remember avoiding poly at all costs , kick it , blind it , gouge or even shadowmeld it . that’s why you have to "sit" on him throughout the whole fight.
If you get polyed anyway , trinket it immediately but be careful that you don't trinket into another poly (watch casting) or before deep freeze . If you want to be 90% sure , use cloak right after trinket and bash him.
Start the duel with sprint , it's always better to have it on.
Poisons – Crippling and mind numbing.
Vs Fire, Arcane - Mostly the same but even easier duels so I have nothing important to add other than avoid the high bursts and improvise whenever needed . Oh and about the disarm thing on shadow dance – use cheap shot (since it ignores disarm) , wait for it to end and then another cheap shot , wait for it and then kidney (by that time the disarm is over if you have weapon chain).


Rogue vs S.Priest
This is very similar to the Frost Mage duel ,assuming the attitude towards Dispersion = iceblock , vampiric touch = Poly.
Always save Cos for Vampiric touch even if you feel like hiting it earlier , unless you're close to death.
Forcing his trinket : Open with a standard Bleed angle using vanish stun not dance at start, the point is to not waste dance on dispersion. After kidney , pop sprint and evasion and stay on him with focused backstabs and hemos. He'll probably fear you , trinket it right away.
If he uses Dispersion , blind him about the end of it and hide , wait for it to end then open with shadow dance .
I remind you , Avoid Vampiric Touch at all costs ! and If the priest successfully gets it on you , Cos it right away and kill him!
One last tip , if you kick his VT ,A good priest will probably heal up fast. , if you see that try to gouge him or use another kick if you have Prep glyph.


Rogue vs Warrior
First of all ,after the first sap , get a bit away cause most wars pop berserker rage and try to shout you out of stealth.
The art of kiting : War vs rogue can be alot of fun once you get the hang of it.
Usually it includes alot of improvising . Basic kiting is by using backstab which gives the Waylay debuff( you can save step for that). Also – Crippling poison , mostly applied by FoK or shiv.
Deadly throw – smaller effect , not so effective ( you can use the glyph of Deadly throw but it's a waste …) .
Trinket - depends 100% on the duel.
On Bs – Disarm is preferred after Step to make sure it hits (so as kidney).
Save blind as a last card! Preferred when a war uses berserker rage - to ensure a full open afterwards with sap.
Gouge is usually an efficient way to trigger BR .
Also – Don't waste dance on shield wall /block .



Rogue vs Shaman
Start with a sap then kill the magma totem with a throw , now before that , make sure that the totem is not buffed with a shield .
If you want to make sure it's destroyed, use Prem > Deadly throw.
Once destroyed , Move away to get out of combat, sap sham again and Open.
On ele sham – standard angle trick is preferred (with bleeds). Save step for thunder storm that will probably be used at one of the stuns.
After open is over , pop sprint and evasion and "sit" on sham all the time with hemo &backstab. Don't let him cast a heal at all costs or hex you ( Watch out for fake casting).
Save trinket for hex in case it happens and pop Cloak only when u feel like you're taking alot of dmg or if the sham uses elemental mastery . Also use blind if the sham hits trinket for any reason.
As for Enhancement, very similar open but make sure to disarm the sham after the kidney and watch out for dogs , if they are popped too early , you can "hide" and wait them out for 45 secs :D (Similar to Garg vs Unholy Dk).


Rogue vs Hunter
This might be considered one of the easiest duels for a Rogue( Especially since BM is bugged). But if not played right , it can easily go wrong.
Bascially a hunter uses Flare at start and traps , disarm them all at start and try to sap the pet without revealing yourself ( you can also use dance , enter flare and sap the pet really quick) .
If you can't it's ok , start the duel with a shadowstep and a fast cheap shot (you have to be super-fast). If you you didn't succeed at it , pop dance and stun him right away. Now , hunter will probably trinket the kidney , if he does , stay on him with sprint and evasion and if things get messy , Use blind but make sure he doesn't have deterrence on at that moment. Cloak , sap and reopen ( you can gouge pet if he won't leave you alone to save a vanish/meld).
Now let's go back to the open , if the Huntard hasn't used trinket on the first kidney , disarm him at the end of it and stay on him and so on …
Stunning through Deterrence – Basically most hits would miss but cheap always hits and the best part is , after it does, everything is open and hits , so you should cheap > hit > kidney afterwards (it will hit 100% , even got to test gouge after cheap and it worked).
Pet knockbacks – make sure you don't trinket a pet kick/knock back (would be a waste).
Also , if you got stunned , some hunters put frost trap near you to trap you after trinket , save trinket in case you see it.


Rogue vs Lock
This is usually one of the fastest duels there is.
Locks are easy to beat if done right , sap pet > open > save cloak and avoid fear etc etc.
However , when it comes to Succubus , three ways to handle it :
1) Sap lock , pop cloak and open , cloak usually blocks Succubus's Silence and you are free to damage lock with dance , Problem is cloak might not block cause of the 90% thing and if that happens , you might be dead :D. Also , you don't have it for the rest of the duel …
2) Controlling the pet , some rogues try to step>kick/stun the pet , it's good but dangerous cause some locks have the fast pet cast talent (3/3 in Improved Succubus).
3) Another way - Use Distract near the Lock , it shows off Succbuss , sap it , wait for energy refill , sap Lock and open on Succ. Kill the pet before sap is over and Open on lock afterwards (Better save Dance for Lock if pet is Dying fast) , this is very effective although its a sort of bug abuse. Your call .
If you want to sap/blind the pet , probably pointless cause of soul link. So don't waste blind if lock is using it…
Second open is a critical one , you have to time it in a way that the Succubus Silence "DR" is not yet refreshed to avoid a full silence .


Rogue vs Death Knight
Basic open (Angle trick preferred for extra dmg) , if you get stunned by pet , trinket it right away cause the dk will use this chance to pop Icebound and ggwp.
Also , if he trinkets your cheap shot , kidney right away and use step if needed , when you get him to low hp , blind > Cloak > vanish and make your second open.
For second open , Watch out for lichborne , Open with a stun instead of sap (if needed) but make sure Stun Dr is refreshed beforehand.
After kidney , on second or first open , use evasion and disarm .
Gargoyle - usually you need to vanish and wait , check Dk's hp , if low , open despite of garg but if not , you should probably wait it out , cheap way but works…


Rogue vs Feral
Bear form – watch out for taunts , Very basic open , normally with the angle trick , cheap > kidney , if druid trinkets kidney or kidney fades normally , pop evasion and sprint , spam hemo and stab , it's a dog fight from there on.
You have to stay on druid, he'll probably try to trap you and stealth to reopen, cloak his traps and stay on him , save step for that too. If somehow you get stunned, don't trinket it right away! Dudu is probably gonna cast cyclone, trinket that instead and finish him.
Save the blind as last card and a 2nd open, also use gouge whenever seems fit.
Cat form – sometimes feral has better stealth talents than you (depending on spec & gear) , you have to be careful with that.
Boomkin – watch for Typhoon at start , stand in a way that you will be behind the druid's back so it won't hit you and reveal you. Also , Don't let him heal cause he heals his hp like a "bitch".
One more thing about Druid's in general , it's the only class you can really perform the "Infinite stun lock" on , it's cool but kinda dangerous.I won't elaborate on it here , too lazy to do that :)

I hope this helps you guys .
This can also be useful in any sort of PVP , not just dueling.
You can always contact me for more elaborate tips here or ingame on Flossburn.



I want to hear your comments :D
Thanks.
Last edited by Floss on 31 May 2016 23:35, edited 4 times in total.

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Fastor
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Re: Subtlety Rogue Dueling guide

#2 » Post by Fastor » 13 Feb 2016 23:49

Where is rogue vs HPala? ^_^

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ItchyVortex
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Re: Subtlety Rogue Dueling guide

#3 » Post by ItchyVortex » 14 Feb 2016 03:57

Fastor wrote:Where is rogue vs HPala? ^_^
Best strat is /forfeit.
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Gnurg
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Re: Subtlety Rogue Dueling guide

#4 » Post by Gnurg » 14 Feb 2016 10:53

Fastor wrote:Where is rogue vs HPala? ^_^
Stay hidden until the paladin gives up.
HAI
CAN HAZ STDIO?
VISIBLE "HAI WORLD, IZ GNURF!"
KTHXBYE

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Boxis
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Re: Subtlety Rogue Dueling guide

#5 » Post by Boxis » 14 Feb 2016 11:43

I just wanted to point out that the "angle trick" is currently bugged, and easily doable because cheap shot/garrote doesn't proc poisons on use. If it was working as it's supposed to, then you would have to switch main hand weapon for some without wound/deadly/anesthetic/instant poison so it doesn't break the sap and after using the garrote/rupture you would have to instantly switch to your main weapons after before opening with cheap shot.

Anyway, strats vs. particular classes depend on everyone's opinion always. I just think you shouldn't use "vanish, step and kidney" against mage, because against good one this will most likely cause your lose. Should always use just vanish or shadowstep not both in same time.

Also, I think locks are one of the hardest enemies to beat, if he plays it right. There is not much you can do, if he wears higher resi + key you will get mostly destroyed after cos.

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Floss
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Re: Subtlety Rogue Dueling guide

#6 » Post by Floss » 14 Feb 2016 17:19

Fastor wrote:Where is rogue vs HPala? ^_^
You can see that i didn't pick any rogue vs healer spec cause well it's just boring and what those guys said :)
Boxis wrote:I just wanted to point out that the "angle trick" is currently bugged, and easily doable because cheap shot/garrote doesn't proc poisons on use. If it was working as it's supposed to, then you would have to switch main hand weapon for some without wound/deadly/anesthetic/instant poison so it doesn't break the sap and after using the garrote/rupture you would have to instantly switch to your main weapons after before opening with cheap shot.

Anyway, strats vs. particular classes depend on everyone's opinion always. I just think you shouldn't use "vanish, step and kidney" against mage, because against good one this will most likely cause your lose. Should always use just vanish or shadowstep not both in same time.

Also, I think locks are one of the hardest enemies to beat, if he plays it right. There is not much you can do, if he wears higher resi + key you will get mostly destroyed after cos.
1) Interesting , so basically if it gets fixed one day , should simply put wound on off and crippling/Mn on main since they don't cause damage.
2) When a Mage blinks you get ice trapped so you can't step out of it . sure you can vanish and sprint like assa but it's less viable. you need to remember that blink and step cds are about the same so it's always ok to step right after a blink. but opinion is opinion.
3) I agree that locks are hard especially with succ but I really can't see a better way than to start with cloak despite it's "riskyness". Ofc you could also hope that the pet goes to Africa , that works too ;)

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Wilcox
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Re: Subtlety Rogue Dueling guide

#7 » Post by Wilcox » 15 Feb 2016 09:12

i hate rogues ;(

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ItchyVortex
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Re: Subtlety Rogue Dueling guide

#8 » Post by ItchyVortex » 15 Feb 2016 17:06

Floss wrote:
Fastor wrote:Where is rogue vs HPala? ^_^
You can see that i didn't pick any rogue vs healer spec cause well it's just boring and what those guys said :)
Subt v Disc can be fun :(
Esunna, Feral Druid | Elainn, Discipline Priest

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SomethingWitty
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Re: Subtlety Rogue Dueling guide

#9 » Post by SomethingWitty » 17 Feb 2016 04:05

Fastor wrote:Where is rogue vs HPala? ^_^
If you wanna kill Hpals in duels reroll to combat/full assass spec, roll with 400 resil and get sapper charge and rocket gloves. Get the pala low enough so that you can kill him off with a killing spree/CB+env+sapper charge+rocket glove combo. This will work against your average Hpal but will probably only work once, if at all, versus decent Hpals.

I never really found the angle trick made much of a difference in duels.

RvR
All about who can vanish the other players shit/predict the trink. If you can figure out your opponents playstyle in this matchup, then you can probably guarantee a 90+% win rate. Least gear dependant match up.

RvMage
If you can predict when the mage is gonna blink/deep it makes the duel alot easier. Vanish the deep/gouge the blink and its usually gg, or preemptively start sprinting to where the mage will blink for extreme pressure. Can go full pve gear in this case, since its a cd war and you wanna do huge damage whenever you can. If youre sitting in a deep youre usually dead. Watch for fake polys, dont kick frostbolts that the mage hard casts when youre on him, blizzard and pet aoes.

RvLock
Distract at beginning to find the pets location, so you dont waste precious time when you open. Basically how to deal with the succ here, i personally like forcing trinks with blind into kidney. Time the blind so that the lock is blinded during the first seduce, gouge the lock during the second seduce. Save clos for after you use your trink to get some burst in and dance during kidney. Predict shadowfury and coils. Even better if youre an eng here, extra burst and a cc breaker with sapper charge.
"he cant even base a shit + he is worst pvp player in here and he tells us we are bad in pvp this is nonesense its like Englez will say that virdo is bad in leading raids and in pve and after virdo asks him why he say that and for what reason englez will say 'i dont want to destroy your statements ive been there done that etc' "-Balanced 2015

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skyx
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Re: Subtlety Rogue Dueling guide

#10 » Post by skyx » 08 Sep 2016 20:44

You didn't mention anything about the 5-8 aka deadzone kiting :(

Also if ur truly hardcore, u would have two extra offhands with mind numbing and anesthetic poison to shiv with.

Also feint + evasion on bladestorm if u can't dismantle/need to save dismantle

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Floss
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Re: Subtlety Rogue Dueling guide

#11 » Post by Floss » 09 Sep 2016 12:18

skyx wrote:You didn't mention anything about the 5-8 aka deadzone kiting :(

Also if ur truly hardcore, u would have two extra offhands with mind numbing and anesthetic poison to shiv with.

Also feint + evasion on bladestorm if u can't dismantle/need to save dismantle

1) Kiting zone -
Floss wrote: All tips given in this guide are pointed to players that know basic rogue dueling routine (stun locking , full open and etc).
It's pretty obvious ...


2) Poisons - I myself hate swapping and prefer doing that only with Assa Envenom spec (To control the deadly poison dot and Add more CC).

3) Evasion -It's tricky , when a warrior hits BS ,you can use Evasion but you have to cancel it right after cause of Overpower.I prefer a swift Step +Disarm instead.No need to save disarm for anything else if you control the Kiting.

Feint - i think you need a second target inorder to activate the 50% less damage thing. Could be wrong , i will test it.

Thanks for the tips ;)

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Floss
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Re: Subtlety Rogue Dueling guide

#12 » Post by Floss » 11 Sep 2016 16:07

Ok Feint was tested and it really makes a difference on Bs. Thanks!

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