Tier 5 PVE Class Tweaks

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KohiiKaiju
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Re: Tier 5 PVE Class Tweaks

#16 » Post by KohiiKaiju » 11 Nov 2017 16:53

Today is the last day to provide feed back on the above changes.

As to other buffs not listed here, such as Elemental Shaman or Feral Druids, we welcome your input in the suggestion forums. Persuasive, evidence based arguments will be listened to genuinely.

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natnat123
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Re: Tier 5 PVE Class Tweaks

#17 » Post by natnat123 » 11 Nov 2017 19:20

isnt this a little short? wouldnt it be best to give people a few more days?

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Nyeriah
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Re: Tier 5 PVE Class Tweaks

#18 » Post by Nyeriah » 11 Nov 2017 23:34

The post above shouldn't be seen as a deadline. Feedback is welcome and will be gathered even after the patch is already live, so you don't need to worry about that. It is not like we will just shrug you off if you took the time to go through testing those changes if you didn't submit your form in time.
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Dunkelstein
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Re: Tier 5 PVE Class Tweaks

#19 » Post by Dunkelstein » 12 Nov 2017 03:07

I've been taking a poke at it, but before comparing numbers I need to know where you're going with the increase of Steady Shot relative to the other Shots?
KohiiKaiju wrote:
07 Nov 2017 03:21
Hunter:
  • Steady Shot: +60% damage (down from 85%)
  • Arcane Shot: +30% damage (down from 65%)
  • Aimed Shot: +30% damage (down from 65%)
  • Serpent Sting: +60% damage (down from 85%)
Looks to me like you're trying to balance the specs out but I think that's the wrong approach.

Overall, Hunters are dealing too much damage right now, I think everyone will agree with that.
IMO we are not supposed to top melee classes with 100% uptime, nor casters when standing still.

Nerf Steady Shot instead of the other Shots. Let Hunters fill the niche of reliable, high mobility ranged dps.

Survival depends much more on Arcane Shot and Serpent Sting damage than the other specs.
Beastmastery has higher pet damage which translates directly into less of a dependency of constantly casting Steady Shots and therefore more mobility.
Marksmanship has higher damage on Aimed Shot, Serpent Sting and Auto Shot.

Steady Shot is currently already doing too much of a hunter's overall damage, it scales much harder with gear than Black Arrow/Arcane Shot/Serpent Sting, and ArP hasn't even been introduced yet.
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Fitzpatrick
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Re: Tier 5 PVE Class Tweaks

#20 » Post by Fitzpatrick » 12 Nov 2017 03:08

Felguard testing:
In current (T4-5ish) gear, and...
Inside an instance (with buff), with relevant totems and Battle Shout, 5% crit buff, and 5/5 Sunders
410 DPS
Image
Outside an instance (without buff), with relevant totems and Battle Shout, 5% crit buff, and 5/5 Sunders
377 DPS
Image

For comparison,
Imp, with relevant totems and CoE (no 5% spell crit buff).
406 DPS
Image

Conclusion: Felguard should now do slightly more damage than an Imp.
Fitzsimmons / Bibimbap / Fitzpatrick
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KohiiKaiju
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Re: Tier 5 PVE Class Tweaks

#21 » Post by KohiiKaiju » 12 Nov 2017 03:28

Dunkelstein wrote:
12 Nov 2017 03:07
stuff
The thinking was just based on math, mostly. Steady shot was a larger chunk of Hunters' DPS, so a smaller change there would have a larger effect. Changing the other shots would a) have a more manageable effect, and b) restrict the Hunters' DPS-in-all-circumstances issue by effecting DDs more than cast-time shots and DoTs. Also, Just going from classic TBC, this was the Steady Shot expansion. I felt nerfing it out of use to be against the spirit of the expansion. Lastly, I felt Steady Shot was the ability most shared between the specs, so I felt more constrained in tweaking it.

The point was never to reduce Hunters' DPS to be *under* casters or melee. The point was to reduce Hunters' ability to do top DPS in every single type of event (Single target, Multi Target, AE, quick kills, etc). Extrapolating the changes on to meters, Hunters will still be at or near the top.

Good luck in testing!

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Dunkelstein
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Re: Tier 5 PVE Class Tweaks

#22 » Post by Dunkelstein » 12 Nov 2017 04:00

Exactly as I thought. Thing is, with wotlk stat allocation on gear and with wotlk talents, the only spec that highly depends on Steady Shot is Armor Pen Marksmanship.
The fault from the beginning (even with the old tuning) was trying to force TBC gameplay on WotLK hunters. It doesn't work out, and it's less fun to play than a rotation where you actually have to prioritize different Shots and which Aspect to use them on.
KohiiKaiju wrote:
12 Nov 2017 03:28
The point was to reduce Hunters' ability to do top DPS in every single type of event (Single target, Multi Target, AE, quick kills, etc).
The only event where Hunters are supposed to top meters are in encounters that involve either
  1. a lot of quick target switching
  2. a lot of movement
The first one won't be affected, but for the second one we need strong instant Shots. Nerf Steady Shots instead of Instant Shots, is what I am saying. Stronger instant Shots will also balance the specs out better than buffing Steady Shot.
Last edited by Dunkelstein on 12 Nov 2017 04:30, edited 1 time in total.
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KohiiKaiju
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Re: Tier 5 PVE Class Tweaks

#23 » Post by KohiiKaiju » 12 Nov 2017 04:11

Steady shot is not being buffed.

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Dunkelstein
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Re: Tier 5 PVE Class Tweaks

#24 » Post by Dunkelstein » 12 Nov 2017 04:26

Image
[http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/9qaf ... etails/23/]
Here's an excerpt from a BM Hunter's report (from live Primal raid) who pretty much just uses Aspect of the Viper on all shots evenly.
Steady Shot is already doing too much damage compared to other Shots.
By nerfing said other Shots harder than Steady Shot, you are effectively buffing Steady Shot compared to those other Shots, is what I meant.

Terminology is unimportant, what I'm trying to say is that with the proposed changes Steady Shot will make up an even bigger chunk of Hunter's damage even though it's not supposed to.

Made some edits, on the last comment, too, to hopefully make my point clearer.
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KohiiKaiju
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Re: Tier 5 PVE Class Tweaks

#25 » Post by KohiiKaiju » 12 Nov 2017 04:54

I'm not sure I agree with your basic premise, but I understand your point. Thanks for contributing.

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Dunkelstein
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Re: Tier 5 PVE Class Tweaks

#26 » Post by Dunkelstein » 14 Nov 2017 14:21

Multi-Shot is now definitively nerfed out of single target rotation - Good!
Serpent Sting is still too weak to be used over Steady Shot - Bad :(
In Beastmastery these two Shots are only really viable during Bestial Wrath, while the 10% dmg increase and mana cost reduction are active. So I am actually doing more dps by pressing fewer buttons. BM Hunters don't have to track any dots, swing timers or CDs, and it will only get worse with better gear because Steady Shot scales much better with Weapon Damage and Crit than Serpent Sting.

Needless to say Marksmanship and Survival are suffering much harder from this nerf than Beastmastery. These two specs depend much more on
Arcane Shot (https://truewow.org/armory/spell.php?id=56344&realm=p https://truewow.org/armory/spell.php?id=19456&realm=p https://truewow.org/armory/spell.php?id=53224&realm=p)
and Aimed Shot (https://truewow.org/armory/spell.php?id=53238&realm=p https://truewow.org/armory/spell.php?id=24691&realm=p https://truewow.org/armory/spell.php?id=35111&realm=p)
than BM (https://truewow.org/armory/spell.php?id=34470&realm=p which plays into Steady Shot).

From BM tests with full raidbuffs, consumes, debuffs and bloodlust:

Image

Conclusion:
Beastmastery, the only viable spec, plays like a Frostbolt-spamming mage back in Molten Core.
It isn't really taking away much from mobility, though. When moving while Arcane Shot is on cooldown, one can still substitute a Steady Shot with a Serpent Sting. And the pet+Auto Shot (still the biggest chunk of overall damage) will still hit no matter how much the hunter moves.

It's really just screwing over the two other specs which are already inferior to BM on Primal right now.
If you don't want Hunters to do incredible dps in every single circumstance, you have to nerf Steady Shot.
Fights with a lot of movement and/or target switching is where Hunters shine brightest, and rightfully so.
They shouldn't be outperforming melees and hardcasters in straight up damage races, though.

A bigger nerf for Steady Shot than for Sting/Arcane/Aimed would be my best bet for balance, and it makes for better gameplay because of the higher importance of Shot Prioritization and Aspect Switching.

I will maybe do some more testing in other gear and specs, but these are all the results I have for now. If anyone wants to try their hand at Hunters on the PTR, PM me here or on discord/ingame. I can set you up with everything you need for testing in just a couple of minutes.
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Almsivi
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Re: Tier 5 PVE Class Tweaks

#27 » Post by Almsivi » 14 Nov 2017 15:11

Sounds reasonable, but getting feedback from more hunters would be nice (not like we don't trust you its just matter of eliminating human mistake factor)
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Dunkelstein
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Re: Tier 5 PVE Class Tweaks

#28 » Post by Dunkelstein » 14 Nov 2017 15:55

Yes we definetly need more people to try it, my gear is also really subpar compared to most others.
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KohiiKaiju
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Re: Tier 5 PVE Class Tweaks

#29 » Post by KohiiKaiju » 14 Nov 2017 16:03

You're saying BM is the only viable spec - right now? The top hunters I see are MM.

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Dunkelstein
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Re: Tier 5 PVE Class Tweaks

#30 » Post by Dunkelstein » 14 Nov 2017 16:50

No, right now MM is still very viable. It can even outperform BM if you have a good ranged weapon, that's true.
But not with the proposed changes, I don't think.

Try to get ahold of damage logs from those MM hunters? Most in my circle are BM, the ones with highest dps anyway.
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