Ok. A staff's reply was requested and that is what this topic will get. Until then, there's no advantage whatsoever in letting people make it more of a drama than it actually is.
It seems (to me, at least) that some people have their perspective set on stone and are only interested in winning/convincing instead of reaching some consensus or at least understand other people's point of view ("your opinion is invalid because...") and that just won't do it for discussions like this.
This topic will probably be reopened once the staff's reply is posted here.
[TW] We are Guinea Pigs? #2
Re: [TW] We are Guinea Pigs? #2
"With life, no matter what you do, you are all in. This is going to kill you. Might as well play the most magnificent game you can while you're waiting, because... Do you have anything better to do? Really?"
-
Nyeriah
Re: [TW] We are Guinea Pigs? #2
I have been thinking over whether I should reply to this or not for long, ever since I came home yesterday and could read every reply. Every single time I thought of writing something, and going for it, I would lose my will to do it before actually completing what I was to say. But okay, I will place my bets on this and be hopeful that what I am going to say will at least reach some people, seeing how undoubtedly it will change nothing for those who are far rooted in their own convictions.
Why was the "revamp", restart or whatever required?
We are working on a big project, server emulators aren't quite simple things. We hold a library of source code, with several components that depend on each other to work, each having their own thousand of lines each. To accompany the source, we also hold a world server database, with thousands and thousands of registries for everything that exists in-game (quests, creatures, AI of creatures...).
To maintain this entire structure, we had several people working on polishing things and getting things to work through time, some of which are no longer with us.
All of those who worked with us had their share of "legacy" that they left behind for everyone else to enjoy -their fixes, their free time spent on content - but for whatever reason of life they decided they no longer wish to dedicate their time to our project. We owe those people as much gratitude as we do to those who still currently work with us.
From patches to patchwork
This is a bit of a time-warp and I am sure many of you have heard this before, but for those who are still not aware of how our development evolved through the times, I think it might be a good to know.
At the very beginning, TrueWoW was composed by nothing but stock TrinityCore changes. Anything you can think of was broken. ICC? Broken. Classes? Barely working. Half content unreleased, and the other half that was released worked in a semi-defunct state. I wasn't here by that time, but following all of the work we have done through all those years, I can say with a certainty that not a single encounter worked as it was supposed to be. But, that was the quality standard of servers at that time. Someone told me once that every single of the merged servers had better working cores than TrueWoW had; that's probably a true assumption.
When GamingConsortium moved here we managed to get the staff to agree on using a revision control tool and having a public repository hosted at GitHub. Before that, the only fixes we had were database fixes and a couple (it may seem like an estimate value but it's quite close to that) patches applied by hand. There was no known contribution from the community that I am aware of, just a couple of patches contributed from Spermik and Bloodcraft.
This whole thing makes the development process much easier, any of the developers can push things and make changes to the source code. It's all great and nice at the beginning, the core is fresh and the chances that what you are changing now will get fixed by TrinityCore in a soon future are low. But 3 or 4 years in the future...
What once looked like this:
Now looks like this
Things change, and specially, after all that time, a lot of things change. TrinityCore messes with things so very often, but they also get touched by the other developers. It's natural, it needs to happen, we can lesser the damage, we cannot prevent it from happening.
We have done a lot of changes to root deep mechanics of TrinityCore (spells, creature movement, several functions and components...) that eventually have undergone changes during the past years. Some more drastic, some not as much. We can have as examples the fact the entire proc system was rewritten, ccrs is doing a lot of changes to how movement works at TrinityCore (he left us, but he's still breaking/fixing things at their end), lots and lots of optimizations and changes to components.
Merge Conflicts and Residual Waste
Considering what has been said before, whenever we pull updates from TrinityCore, the changes they have made to the source often conflict with ours. And then we get a prompt like this:
Because someone at TrinityCore decided apples are now oranges and we need to follow their bible if we wish to continue receiving updates. This is something that happens often, updates that are purely structural and don't change anything... but will break the entirety of your custom work until you have the time to change it and update it to the new TrinityCore way of doing things.
When the work is fresh, dealing with merge conflicts is an easy thing: just pick the working "diff" and go with it.
If the TrinityCore way solves the issues without losses, the TrinityCore version is kept and the custom work is discarded entirely.
If the TrinityCore way solves the issues partially, the TrinityCore version is kept and the remaining issues are mended.
If the TrinityCore way does not solve anything and just breaks it, then it needs to be reverted and the custom work reapplied.
But what happens if at a later time someone from TrinityCore applies changes to the work that was reverted? Then the custom work needs to be reverted, the TrinityCore version needs to be reapplied, and then the posterior changes that were applied later take place.
But remember those changes made by those developers who left us 2 years ago? How will you figure out what's the version to choose? Which one addresses the issues?
The work above is not mine. It is I believe from Frewdis, but since I am the one merging the update, it falls on me to address it. It might not be the best example, because we have contact with Frewdis daily, but what if we didn't? We are trying to make things as clear and possible and keep the code as documented as we can, but things done far in the past weren't that well documented (TrinityCore doesn't have a "proper" documentation at all up to this day, so no one can really be blamed for that).
As you can see in the image, I need to choose between version A, version B and version C. Version C being our repository (custom), version B being my local repository with the TC changes on top of it.
Those changes are documented so I have a ground of expectations when it comes to what will change once they are gone... but what if they were not? What if the author was unreachable? Sure, find a way to message the person. But if they left us, it probably means they don't want to be involved with the project anymore, so would they spare the time to check this for us? Most people who left are light-years away from anything private server related...
Even if they are reachable (considering reaching them alone is a rather hard task), will they provide me assistance whenever I need it? Or will they stall me and say they'll check it later? Those things are things that require immediate attention, I can't leave content unmerged, because I can't work on the repository or commit (push any other changes) anything until it is.
But, the problem is still there. When there's a complete lack of information, intuition works the best. I try to verify the code and check what changes are less likely to break something and then check if anything broke regarding it. Git can merge conflicts by its own too when they are simple, it tries hard to by default, but sometimes it just tries too hard and it ends up completely disastrous as we can see below.
The image is a bit cut but you can see it mixed changes from version B and version C up to something illogical that would not compile. We don't get warnings for the changes it fixes on it's own, and disabling the automerge feature to fix every change by our own is just unrealistic.
All of this revert/reapply/merge process results in residual waste: code that is no longer needed and ends up being left there, similar to actual residual waste. You want to expand your room, you need to break a wall to do so, the broken debris needs to go somewhere, it needs to be taken out... but what if it ends up not being taken out completely? How many times have you uninstalled some software and it gave you a message that some files could not be removed and they were left behind? Even if you can remove them manually now, you still need to find them to delete them. They may seem like far-fetched analogies, but I think they picture the situation well.
Like debris left in the mid of your room, or unused files trashing your hard drive, this code "residual waste" tends to give us problems as time passes by. They start creating issues that are native to our server only and take long for us to figure, or we end up not figuring at all. Examples? The PartyPet, RaidPet issues, that one time Blood-Queen lanath'el would reset once going to air phase, remember when creatures would enter permanent evade mode when a hunter feign-death'ed them? Players having their clients crash in AV and Wintergrasp? Those were all caused by residual waste, things that should be gone but were still there.
In a very bright optimistic perspective, they could cause crashes. In a not so bright perspective, they could compromise data and cause issues that would take us very long to figure.
That's why we decided we could no longer brute force it and apply mend over mend of the patches and actually start fresh. So we for certainly would not have any residual waste polluting our core and database, so things could be straight-lined and the no longer needed "trash" could be taken out.
Why now? Why not wait for longer?
To explain the reason why it was decided it could no longer wait, I'll return to some old, good Greek philosophy: the paradoxies of Zeno of Elea. Ever heard of Achiles and the Tortoise? Even with a head start, Achiles would never be able to reach past the tortoise, even being incredibly faster. Because to do that he'd first need to reach the tortoise, but by the time he reaches it, the tortoise will already be further ahead. This is the situation we had here.
We had planned this revamp at early 2016, but ever since then, our development has continued. We continued to implement new fixes and features to the old core, because, obviously, we can't freeze development until the revamp process is done because we don't know when it will be.
The more work we did at the "old" core, the more work was needed to be implemented at the revamp branch, in a situation it would never be ready, because there would always be something to be added, something that was left missing.
When it was ready, it was not ready. Because once ready, it already needed to reach a further point.
This is confusing, I assume. But it's still the most accurate way to picture why we went with this now, and not in two years from now.
"Why update TrueWoW? Why not let it die with old core and no fixes? Why not abandon TrueWoW?"
Are you guys for real? Are you reading what you are posting? "Why not forget TrueWoW?" Simple, we don't want it to die. Simple, we have not stopped caring about TrueWoW. Simple, we wish to continue developing it and bringing new content to our players. I think it's easy to say nobody cares while ignoring what is being done, it's simple to hoard toxicity and stain any discussion with it, but it's hard to acknowledge what is being done, it's hard to try to cooperate and collaborate for things to get better.
Both realms cannot be updated at the same time. This is a fact, some may not be aware, but either way it's a inexorable fact that I am presenting you now. They can't be updated at the same time.
Both realms require difference resources from us. TrueWoW require content to be worked from top to bottom, while Primal requires content to be worked from bottom to top. With this I mean, latest raids to oldest rads, vice and versa.
We decided to start from top to bottom because Primal will have the Burning Crusade expansion update so that alone will require a lot of resources, so back then, in October 2016, it was a better investment to work on updating ICC and other WotLK features to the new core than vanilla raids and lower content.
I even wanted to try updating them both at the same time but after studying the case better I realized it would have been an awful idea. Not only we would need to split our resources, but also all of the PrimalWoW vanilla specific changes would need to be reapplied... 1-2 months before they were supposed to be replaced by TBC ones, being trashed completely: too wasteful to be afforded.
"Are we guinea pigs?"
No, you are not. But everyone here is a tester, if things are to be fixed they need to be reported. The new core was announced October, November last year or so. So far, we had vastly larger contribution from Primal players. I mean, "i was not aware I was supposed to test things" doesn't really play out. Everyone was aware, also, not even the first time we have been through this.
I also don't understand the individualistic attitude from some people. It's not all about TrueWoW anymore, neither it has ever been all about PrimalWoW, nor will it ever be all about Stormhold when it's out. How do you think PrimalWoW players felt back in the old days when TrueWoW had more activity? Like during Zul'Gurub release? There are ups and downs, we need to work around them, and we can only work them out in a combined effort.
Flooded has been pulling out an amazing job with Primal and it's flourishing, but that's not about him, or us only. I really feel like the Primal community is always interested and contributing, really working towards the goal of the server, really working towards making it a good place for players to be and showing it to the outside, showing it to the new players. I can't say we ever had such engagement from TrueWoW players in all those years I have been here, it has always been sporadic.
The same kind of activity would have been required to stabilize TrueWoW, more engagement from the community and staff members.
It's true that I have chosen to distance myself from the TrueWoW community, I haven't participated as much as I used to, but that's due that I don't really get the good vibrations I used to get. Most feedback I get from the TrueWoW community comes in a rancid way, about everything that is done, so it's really hard to work with the toxicity. I opt to take a step back and let the discussions flow without me taking part in them.
I am really grateful for those who still contribute and helps us reach or goals, help us improve things, with reasonable criticism and reasonable demands. You know, that thing about words seasoned with honey take you further than those seasoned with vinegar would? No wait, wait, not saying anyone should hide their discontentment and pretend they're happy that their entertainment is malfunctioning, but certainly healthy discussions moved by realistic arguments will lead us to where we want to get. Hatred leads nowhere.
And that's one of the problems with the TrueWoW community, the constant thirst for hate and something to hate on. One of the reasons why things decayed is the constant presence of people that contribute with nothing, but instead work against the community, work against the staff. They have their own personal agendas and spend their days spreading false claims and their made up assumptions, sometimes even distorting what they read in order to cause a commotion. Those who have no contact with the sources of information, no contact with the staff or community outside of the game, or even do, are often easily carried by the negativity those people bear. If a new player logs and sees someone constantly spamming world channel telling them the server is dead and staff doesn't care about it anymore, what will they think? It doesn't even need to be a new comer, it ends up sinking into anyone.
Other than that...
I had less time than I usually do to invest in the server lately but I still work my ass off to get everything running and I 90% of time am here when something goes wrong to fix it. So don't tell me I don't care about the server, and don't expect me to be fine with anyone saying I don't care about the server. I don't think anyone has the right to claim that about any of us, it's just untrue and often malicious.
It's that strange feeling of working on things and trying to make things stay alive while others are trying to sunder it and actively working to undermine what you do, it's a bit corrosive and often extinguishes the motivation to participate more actively. So am sorry if I was too hasty about locking your previous threads, Matsy.
Well, this is sort of long, but hopefully the past 4 hours spent putting all of this together won't be a complete waste...
Regards.
Why was the "revamp", restart or whatever required?
We are working on a big project, server emulators aren't quite simple things. We hold a library of source code, with several components that depend on each other to work, each having their own thousand of lines each. To accompany the source, we also hold a world server database, with thousands and thousands of registries for everything that exists in-game (quests, creatures, AI of creatures...).
To maintain this entire structure, we had several people working on polishing things and getting things to work through time, some of which are no longer with us.
All of those who worked with us had their share of "legacy" that they left behind for everyone else to enjoy -their fixes, their free time spent on content - but for whatever reason of life they decided they no longer wish to dedicate their time to our project. We owe those people as much gratitude as we do to those who still currently work with us.
From patches to patchwork
This is a bit of a time-warp and I am sure many of you have heard this before, but for those who are still not aware of how our development evolved through the times, I think it might be a good to know.
At the very beginning, TrueWoW was composed by nothing but stock TrinityCore changes. Anything you can think of was broken. ICC? Broken. Classes? Barely working. Half content unreleased, and the other half that was released worked in a semi-defunct state. I wasn't here by that time, but following all of the work we have done through all those years, I can say with a certainty that not a single encounter worked as it was supposed to be. But, that was the quality standard of servers at that time. Someone told me once that every single of the merged servers had better working cores than TrueWoW had; that's probably a true assumption.
When GamingConsortium moved here we managed to get the staff to agree on using a revision control tool and having a public repository hosted at GitHub. Before that, the only fixes we had were database fixes and a couple (it may seem like an estimate value but it's quite close to that) patches applied by hand. There was no known contribution from the community that I am aware of, just a couple of patches contributed from Spermik and Bloodcraft.
This whole thing makes the development process much easier, any of the developers can push things and make changes to the source code. It's all great and nice at the beginning, the core is fresh and the chances that what you are changing now will get fixed by TrinityCore in a soon future are low. But 3 or 4 years in the future...
What once looked like this:
Now looks like this
Things change, and specially, after all that time, a lot of things change. TrinityCore messes with things so very often, but they also get touched by the other developers. It's natural, it needs to happen, we can lesser the damage, we cannot prevent it from happening.
We have done a lot of changes to root deep mechanics of TrinityCore (spells, creature movement, several functions and components...) that eventually have undergone changes during the past years. Some more drastic, some not as much. We can have as examples the fact the entire proc system was rewritten, ccrs is doing a lot of changes to how movement works at TrinityCore (he left us, but he's still breaking/fixing things at their end), lots and lots of optimizations and changes to components.
Merge Conflicts and Residual Waste
Considering what has been said before, whenever we pull updates from TrinityCore, the changes they have made to the source often conflict with ours. And then we get a prompt like this:
Because someone at TrinityCore decided apples are now oranges and we need to follow their bible if we wish to continue receiving updates. This is something that happens often, updates that are purely structural and don't change anything... but will break the entirety of your custom work until you have the time to change it and update it to the new TrinityCore way of doing things.
When the work is fresh, dealing with merge conflicts is an easy thing: just pick the working "diff" and go with it.
If the TrinityCore way solves the issues without losses, the TrinityCore version is kept and the custom work is discarded entirely.
If the TrinityCore way solves the issues partially, the TrinityCore version is kept and the remaining issues are mended.
If the TrinityCore way does not solve anything and just breaks it, then it needs to be reverted and the custom work reapplied.
But what happens if at a later time someone from TrinityCore applies changes to the work that was reverted? Then the custom work needs to be reverted, the TrinityCore version needs to be reapplied, and then the posterior changes that were applied later take place.
But remember those changes made by those developers who left us 2 years ago? How will you figure out what's the version to choose? Which one addresses the issues?
The work above is not mine. It is I believe from Frewdis, but since I am the one merging the update, it falls on me to address it. It might not be the best example, because we have contact with Frewdis daily, but what if we didn't? We are trying to make things as clear and possible and keep the code as documented as we can, but things done far in the past weren't that well documented (TrinityCore doesn't have a "proper" documentation at all up to this day, so no one can really be blamed for that).
As you can see in the image, I need to choose between version A, version B and version C. Version C being our repository (custom), version B being my local repository with the TC changes on top of it.
Those changes are documented so I have a ground of expectations when it comes to what will change once they are gone... but what if they were not? What if the author was unreachable? Sure, find a way to message the person. But if they left us, it probably means they don't want to be involved with the project anymore, so would they spare the time to check this for us? Most people who left are light-years away from anything private server related...
Even if they are reachable (considering reaching them alone is a rather hard task), will they provide me assistance whenever I need it? Or will they stall me and say they'll check it later? Those things are things that require immediate attention, I can't leave content unmerged, because I can't work on the repository or commit (push any other changes) anything until it is.
But, the problem is still there. When there's a complete lack of information, intuition works the best. I try to verify the code and check what changes are less likely to break something and then check if anything broke regarding it. Git can merge conflicts by its own too when they are simple, it tries hard to by default, but sometimes it just tries too hard and it ends up completely disastrous as we can see below.
The image is a bit cut but you can see it mixed changes from version B and version C up to something illogical that would not compile. We don't get warnings for the changes it fixes on it's own, and disabling the automerge feature to fix every change by our own is just unrealistic.
All of this revert/reapply/merge process results in residual waste: code that is no longer needed and ends up being left there, similar to actual residual waste. You want to expand your room, you need to break a wall to do so, the broken debris needs to go somewhere, it needs to be taken out... but what if it ends up not being taken out completely? How many times have you uninstalled some software and it gave you a message that some files could not be removed and they were left behind? Even if you can remove them manually now, you still need to find them to delete them. They may seem like far-fetched analogies, but I think they picture the situation well.
Like debris left in the mid of your room, or unused files trashing your hard drive, this code "residual waste" tends to give us problems as time passes by. They start creating issues that are native to our server only and take long for us to figure, or we end up not figuring at all. Examples? The PartyPet, RaidPet issues, that one time Blood-Queen lanath'el would reset once going to air phase, remember when creatures would enter permanent evade mode when a hunter feign-death'ed them? Players having their clients crash in AV and Wintergrasp? Those were all caused by residual waste, things that should be gone but were still there.
In a very bright optimistic perspective, they could cause crashes. In a not so bright perspective, they could compromise data and cause issues that would take us very long to figure.
That's why we decided we could no longer brute force it and apply mend over mend of the patches and actually start fresh. So we for certainly would not have any residual waste polluting our core and database, so things could be straight-lined and the no longer needed "trash" could be taken out.
Why now? Why not wait for longer?
To explain the reason why it was decided it could no longer wait, I'll return to some old, good Greek philosophy: the paradoxies of Zeno of Elea. Ever heard of Achiles and the Tortoise? Even with a head start, Achiles would never be able to reach past the tortoise, even being incredibly faster. Because to do that he'd first need to reach the tortoise, but by the time he reaches it, the tortoise will already be further ahead. This is the situation we had here.
We had planned this revamp at early 2016, but ever since then, our development has continued. We continued to implement new fixes and features to the old core, because, obviously, we can't freeze development until the revamp process is done because we don't know when it will be.
The more work we did at the "old" core, the more work was needed to be implemented at the revamp branch, in a situation it would never be ready, because there would always be something to be added, something that was left missing.
When it was ready, it was not ready. Because once ready, it already needed to reach a further point.
This is confusing, I assume. But it's still the most accurate way to picture why we went with this now, and not in two years from now.
"Why update TrueWoW? Why not let it die with old core and no fixes? Why not abandon TrueWoW?"
Are you guys for real? Are you reading what you are posting? "Why not forget TrueWoW?" Simple, we don't want it to die. Simple, we have not stopped caring about TrueWoW. Simple, we wish to continue developing it and bringing new content to our players. I think it's easy to say nobody cares while ignoring what is being done, it's simple to hoard toxicity and stain any discussion with it, but it's hard to acknowledge what is being done, it's hard to try to cooperate and collaborate for things to get better.
Both realms cannot be updated at the same time. This is a fact, some may not be aware, but either way it's a inexorable fact that I am presenting you now. They can't be updated at the same time.
Both realms require difference resources from us. TrueWoW require content to be worked from top to bottom, while Primal requires content to be worked from bottom to top. With this I mean, latest raids to oldest rads, vice and versa.
We decided to start from top to bottom because Primal will have the Burning Crusade expansion update so that alone will require a lot of resources, so back then, in October 2016, it was a better investment to work on updating ICC and other WotLK features to the new core than vanilla raids and lower content.
I even wanted to try updating them both at the same time but after studying the case better I realized it would have been an awful idea. Not only we would need to split our resources, but also all of the PrimalWoW vanilla specific changes would need to be reapplied... 1-2 months before they were supposed to be replaced by TBC ones, being trashed completely: too wasteful to be afforded.
"Are we guinea pigs?"
No, you are not. But everyone here is a tester, if things are to be fixed they need to be reported. The new core was announced October, November last year or so. So far, we had vastly larger contribution from Primal players. I mean, "i was not aware I was supposed to test things" doesn't really play out. Everyone was aware, also, not even the first time we have been through this.
I also don't understand the individualistic attitude from some people. It's not all about TrueWoW anymore, neither it has ever been all about PrimalWoW, nor will it ever be all about Stormhold when it's out. How do you think PrimalWoW players felt back in the old days when TrueWoW had more activity? Like during Zul'Gurub release? There are ups and downs, we need to work around them, and we can only work them out in a combined effort.
Flooded has been pulling out an amazing job with Primal and it's flourishing, but that's not about him, or us only. I really feel like the Primal community is always interested and contributing, really working towards the goal of the server, really working towards making it a good place for players to be and showing it to the outside, showing it to the new players. I can't say we ever had such engagement from TrueWoW players in all those years I have been here, it has always been sporadic.
The same kind of activity would have been required to stabilize TrueWoW, more engagement from the community and staff members.
It's true that I have chosen to distance myself from the TrueWoW community, I haven't participated as much as I used to, but that's due that I don't really get the good vibrations I used to get. Most feedback I get from the TrueWoW community comes in a rancid way, about everything that is done, so it's really hard to work with the toxicity. I opt to take a step back and let the discussions flow without me taking part in them.
I am really grateful for those who still contribute and helps us reach or goals, help us improve things, with reasonable criticism and reasonable demands. You know, that thing about words seasoned with honey take you further than those seasoned with vinegar would? No wait, wait, not saying anyone should hide their discontentment and pretend they're happy that their entertainment is malfunctioning, but certainly healthy discussions moved by realistic arguments will lead us to where we want to get. Hatred leads nowhere.
And that's one of the problems with the TrueWoW community, the constant thirst for hate and something to hate on. One of the reasons why things decayed is the constant presence of people that contribute with nothing, but instead work against the community, work against the staff. They have their own personal agendas and spend their days spreading false claims and their made up assumptions, sometimes even distorting what they read in order to cause a commotion. Those who have no contact with the sources of information, no contact with the staff or community outside of the game, or even do, are often easily carried by the negativity those people bear. If a new player logs and sees someone constantly spamming world channel telling them the server is dead and staff doesn't care about it anymore, what will they think? It doesn't even need to be a new comer, it ends up sinking into anyone.
Other than that...
I had less time than I usually do to invest in the server lately but I still work my ass off to get everything running and I 90% of time am here when something goes wrong to fix it. So don't tell me I don't care about the server, and don't expect me to be fine with anyone saying I don't care about the server. I don't think anyone has the right to claim that about any of us, it's just untrue and often malicious.
It's that strange feeling of working on things and trying to make things stay alive while others are trying to sunder it and actively working to undermine what you do, it's a bit corrosive and often extinguishes the motivation to participate more actively. So am sorry if I was too hasty about locking your previous threads, Matsy.
Well, this is sort of long, but hopefully the past 4 hours spent putting all of this together won't be a complete waste...
Regards.
Re: [TW] We are Guinea Pigs? #2
Nyeriah, from the bottom of my heart, I want to thanke you for taking the time to write this and explain the situation.
Mandatory Character List:
Zortax - Fury/Prot
Zortix - Boomkin/Restoration
Zortex - MM
Thepower - Enha/Restoration
Zortux - Prot/Ret
Discbelf - Shadow/Disc
Deathen - Frost/Blood
Oombacca - Restoration/Feral(bear)
Kelbert - Demonology
Froxy - Arcane/Fire
Zortax - Fury/Prot
Zortix - Boomkin/Restoration
Zortex - MM
Thepower - Enha/Restoration
Zortux - Prot/Ret
Discbelf - Shadow/Disc
Deathen - Frost/Blood
Oombacca - Restoration/Feral(bear)
Kelbert - Demonology
Froxy - Arcane/Fire
Re: [TW] We are Guinea Pigs? #2
I dont't play primal no intentions to but played truewow for years since spermik merge... long live TrueWow! 
-
darkfener93
- Posts: 394
- Joined: 09 Jun 2015 21:55
Re: [TW] We are Guinea Pigs? #2
thank you staff for the patience and thank you for your work and for spending time for us...i have play in some servers and i never see a staff like this...i hope this will continue and i wanna do my best for help you(with report ecc...) 
ty again staffDa Caesari quae sunt Caesaris
Re: [TW] We are Guinea Pigs? #2
Nyeriah, thank you for your hard work and your post.
What you have committed is the classic catch-22 situation of private servers.
TW is already in bad shape and this new core will just alienate the TW player base further.
The PvPers, hardcore PvErs were already gone now this change will just annoy the casual PvErs.
Is it just not possible to leave TW as it was, focus exclusively on Primal WoW for now and not spread your team too thin?
Everyone knows TW is on its death throes so please maybe consider giving her a dignified ending.
Where do I begin... your command of English is really bad.x00er00 wrote: ↑06 May 2017 17:26
@ Skyx the only plug that needs to be finally pulled is you guess ... you belong right there with Zsombe , Dropdead , Apathy , Matsy and the rest of their ilk... i guess Roel revealed his master plan to you ?. Belive you ? yeah lol ... please take Chillmaster's advice ... kind regards....
It is quite logical (and natural) for one to suspect my "theory" given the negative backlash the change has caused.
A successful WoW server has the following characteristics:
1) Steady stream of donations
2) A decently sized player base
3) Stable server
4) Working Content
5) Unique selling point
and so on. Does TW have these traits? I will let you decide Einstein
I am glad that you are just a little peon and nothing more. Perma-banning people for having an opinion? Even Hitler wasn't that harsh. And even if you were a big-shot, I wouldn't give a fudge to be honest.
Re: [TW] We are Guinea Pigs? #2
lol stop the fking drama seriously
Ganon - Undead Priest http://www.primalwow.org/armory/character.php?n=Ganon
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Nyeriah
Re: [TW] We are Guinea Pigs? #2
Does anyone else have more elaborated and constructive feedback to give like the one above? Or is it safe to assume everything is clear now?
Waiting a response from the OP to conclude this.
Waiting a response from the OP to conclude this.
Re: [TW] We are Guinea Pigs? #2
You still didn't say what TW specificly gets out of this (saying "we wish to continue developing it and bringing new content" doesn't answer anything, what new content?) but whatever.....
feel free to close it
feel free to close it
Matsy pls
Mats - Frost PVE Troll Death Knight - Retired
Matsy - Moonkin/Restoration Druid (Laz0r Chicken)
Mat - Beastmaster Orc Hunter
Matz -Retribution Paladin
Matu - Troll Shadow Priest
Bolts - Elemental Troll Shaman
Kungfu - Orc Fury Warrior
Trollage - Troll Arcane Mage
Mato - Orc Affliction Warlock
Findme - Troll Assassination Rogue
I Pity the Fool who's illogical
Friends are just people you hate the least
I reject your reality and substitute my own
Mats - Frost PVE Troll Death Knight - Retired
Matsy - Moonkin/Restoration Druid (Laz0r Chicken)
Mat - Beastmaster Orc Hunter
Matz -Retribution Paladin
Matu - Troll Shadow Priest
Bolts - Elemental Troll Shaman
Kungfu - Orc Fury Warrior
Trollage - Troll Arcane Mage
Mato - Orc Affliction Warlock
Findme - Troll Assassination Rogue
I Pity the Fool who's illogical
Friends are just people you hate the least
I reject your reality and substitute my own
-
Nyeriah
Re: [TW] We are Guinea Pigs? #2
Okay, leaving it open for a day to see if we get more feedback then locking it as the OP has been answered.
Re: [TW] We are Guinea Pigs? #2
This is a sensitive subject for both players and staff.
Matsy ,
With or without the core update , it doesn't make much of a difference now.
The only way to have a normal Wotlk gaming experience is to merge with another Wotlk server.
Start thinking like a rational gamer.
However , i agree with you, The core update didn't help TrueWow at all.
Nyeriah and Staff,
We do appreciate your work and investment over the years and more...
There were very few cases where people remembered to say a proper thank you and i know Nye that if you haven't put that much effort into the server over the years you wouldn't be working this hard to prove a point over a post.
But you have to understand ,we are still deeply attached to our characters and we're sad that this has happened. (Look at Gnurg's Achievement points or Matsy's number of endless chars and posts ,you'll understand where they're coming from).
We want to play those chars with a clean content not a bugged one.(No , we don't see the big picture cause it's irrelevant to us at this point).
As for a solution , i recommend those two options for you :
A) Reset the core update or cancel it (if thats even possible) and all is well with the world.
Or
B) As you launch TBC , Open Transfers from TrueWow to PrimalWow but on the condition that the stats transfer aswell (1:1) ,that includes Hks ,Mounts ,Achievement points(Up to Tbc content) ,Pets ,Amount of gold and etc . This will atleast give us the feeling that those endless hours we spent on the chars weren't completely wasted (Reserves the feeling of achievement).
I've played on PrimalWow for a month and i like it , it's not perfect cause talents are broken (being Wotlk based) yet it's still fun the Community is good and friendly. I encourage you guys to give it a try.
Matsy ,
With or without the core update , it doesn't make much of a difference now.
The only way to have a normal Wotlk gaming experience is to merge with another Wotlk server.
Start thinking like a rational gamer.
However , i agree with you, The core update didn't help TrueWow at all.
Nyeriah and Staff,
We do appreciate your work and investment over the years and more...
There were very few cases where people remembered to say a proper thank you and i know Nye that if you haven't put that much effort into the server over the years you wouldn't be working this hard to prove a point over a post.
But you have to understand ,we are still deeply attached to our characters and we're sad that this has happened. (Look at Gnurg's Achievement points or Matsy's number of endless chars and posts ,you'll understand where they're coming from).
We want to play those chars with a clean content not a bugged one.(No , we don't see the big picture cause it's irrelevant to us at this point).
As for a solution , i recommend those two options for you :
A) Reset the core update or cancel it (if thats even possible) and all is well with the world.
Or
B) As you launch TBC , Open Transfers from TrueWow to PrimalWow but on the condition that the stats transfer aswell (1:1) ,that includes Hks ,Mounts ,Achievement points(Up to Tbc content) ,Pets ,Amount of gold and etc . This will atleast give us the feeling that those endless hours we spent on the chars weren't completely wasted (Reserves the feeling of achievement).
I've played on PrimalWow for a month and i like it , it's not perfect cause talents are broken (being Wotlk based) yet it's still fun the Community is good and friendly. I encourage you guys to give it a try.
Re: [TW] We are Guinea Pigs? #2
Yes Floss I know, I've wanted US to merge with a bigger server for a long while, but that isn't in the cards and never will be.
I'm all for suggestion number B however if that what it comes too, I'm not exactly wanting to play for another 2 years (ish) until PW reaches the natural merging point on a buggy server with a very low population (not really anyones fault), would rather it come sooner than later but everything would need to transfer (gear ofc not but everything else)
Also yes I know I'm a grumpy asshole who hates the world.
I'm all for suggestion number B however if that what it comes too, I'm not exactly wanting to play for another 2 years (ish) until PW reaches the natural merging point on a buggy server with a very low population (not really anyones fault), would rather it come sooner than later but everything would need to transfer (gear ofc not but everything else)
Also yes I know I'm a grumpy asshole who hates the world.
Matsy pls
Mats - Frost PVE Troll Death Knight - Retired
Matsy - Moonkin/Restoration Druid (Laz0r Chicken)
Mat - Beastmaster Orc Hunter
Matz -Retribution Paladin
Matu - Troll Shadow Priest
Bolts - Elemental Troll Shaman
Kungfu - Orc Fury Warrior
Trollage - Troll Arcane Mage
Mato - Orc Affliction Warlock
Findme - Troll Assassination Rogue
I Pity the Fool who's illogical
Friends are just people you hate the least
I reject your reality and substitute my own
Mats - Frost PVE Troll Death Knight - Retired
Matsy - Moonkin/Restoration Druid (Laz0r Chicken)
Mat - Beastmaster Orc Hunter
Matz -Retribution Paladin
Matu - Troll Shadow Priest
Bolts - Elemental Troll Shaman
Kungfu - Orc Fury Warrior
Trollage - Troll Arcane Mage
Mato - Orc Affliction Warlock
Findme - Troll Assassination Rogue
I Pity the Fool who's illogical
Friends are just people you hate the least
I reject your reality and substitute my own
Re: [TW] We are Guinea Pigs? #2
I just hope that with neither the change on TW nor the (heated) debate about it we are risking to harm/destroy what we have here. I personally love PrimalWoW where I have a ton of characters (most of them 60 or close to it) on both factions. I'm an Altoholic!
I sometimes wonder, if having 2 (in a way similar) WotLK realms makes actual sense. Don't the 2 compete against each other in a way?
My idea/suggestion would be to make it easy to have (mirror/easy transfer in both directions) characters on both realms and each to have a clear focus, e. g.
- PrimalWoW is THE PvE progression realm
- TrueWoW is THE World PvP (brawling), BG and Arena realm
Transfer-Modes:
- Max-level (with respect to current phase) PW char --> Instant 80 with basic (blue) PvP gear (keep xmog sets)
- Max-level (= 80) TW char --> Instant max-level of previous PW phase (60 at the momemnt).
I sometimes wonder, if having 2 (in a way similar) WotLK realms makes actual sense. Don't the 2 compete against each other in a way?
My idea/suggestion would be to make it easy to have (mirror/easy transfer in both directions) characters on both realms and each to have a clear focus, e. g.
- PrimalWoW is THE PvE progression realm
- TrueWoW is THE World PvP (brawling), BG and Arena realm
Transfer-Modes:
- Max-level (with respect to current phase) PW char --> Instant 80 with basic (blue) PvP gear (keep xmog sets)
- Max-level (= 80) TW char --> Instant max-level of previous PW phase (60 at the momemnt).
I am the beginning. The end. The one who is many. I am the Borg
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