LK25hc

[Myaoming]

In this world, players give the Staff screenshots, and not the other way around.

Yeah I knew I shouldn't have said that. We already have 2 people understanding it wrong. I actually edited it before any of you two post. This wasn't related to this case at all. I was stating a general fact. Doesn't matter.

Innocentguy, I will not reveal how I got the information and from who. I will not put that person in a bad position just to prove the obvious. Yes, the obvious. If you really want to know who's responsible, you got to ask your raid leader. You're wasting time with me. If I don't show you proof, doesn't mean I haven't made my investigations. You sir are seriously asking me to prove the obvious. You're not ridiculing me, you're ridiculing yourself. I repeat, it's obvious that successful LK25hc runs, no matter which guild run it is, are due to abusing a Taunt on the Lich King to halt his cast. Enough.

Now to back up this

I'm not assuming anything. I clearly know that you guys are abusing because you can (in 10hc mode) AND because it's the only option to kill LK in 25hc mode.

I got this

[2:09:22 AM] Barteld L. (Bele): group 1: time spend on LK hc
[2:09:26 AM] Barteld L. (Bele): 5 hrs
[2:09:30 AM] Barteld L. (Bele): without bug abuse
[2:09:45 AM] Barteld L. (Bele): group 2: time spend on LK hc 17 hrs
[2:09:48 AM] Barteld L. (Bele): without bug abuse
[2:09:53 AM] Barteld L. (Bele): 3/50 attempts left
[2:10:07 AM] Barteld L. (Bele): group 3: spend time on LK10hc 7 hrs
[2:10:17 AM] Barteld L. (Bele): killed it with bug abuse eventually
group 4-5-6 both downed LK10hc with +-20/50 attempts remaining
[2:10:59 AM] Barteld L. (Bele): approx 3-4 hrs
[2:11:10 AM] Barteld L. (Bele): bug abuse after the wipes

This shows that you were abusing because you can. Why?
Apparently, LK10hc is doable without the abuse (group 1 and group 2). Yet you managed to bug abuse in group 3-4-5-6, either because you got enough of the wipes, or to just make things go faster. The abuse wasn't needed, yet was used because you can. Justified.

You have been doing this for a while, yes. We were probably late with such decision. But

The Staff has made it's decision, and it won't look back anymore.

For the "pissing off much of TW's active population" part, in my opinion you should relax. You're pissed off because you can't kill the so bugged LK25hc anymore under some exploit, and have to wait until the encounter is mostly well scripted? I hope you get over this really quick.

[belendor]

You seem to forget 1 quote.....

I told you it was pure luck. depending on when u push LK to trans phase 2. If it were wipes on our own bad, i would agree with you. But since it is mere luck, no just no.
Slar i'm trying to be reasonable. try to do the same, if you quote, quote it all. i could quote u aswell in that chat box...

[Myaoming]

What am I missing?
Doesn't matter though. You just explained what you might have missed explaining on Skype.

You can't hold your DPS or something to get a well timed Transition Phase?

[Ragnorak]

Just want to clarify since we are taking a strong stance on this bug exploitation...
People should be banned if they taunt Marrowgar during Bonestorm because this allows the raid to position where they want the flames to spawn.
People should be banned if they finish the Gunship encounter if the Mages get evade bugged causing there to be no Below Zero. If a Mage gets bugged the raid should force wipe and redo it hoping the mages dont get bugged next try.
People should be banned in general for downing Deathbringer Saurfang since he is bugged in a way that makes him into only a Tank and Spank encounter. But seeing as how Deathbringer Saurfang drops Deathbringer's Will i guess i can see why people wont want to be banned for downing him even though it's exploiting a major bug.
People should be banned if they down Festergut in HC mode because there is no malleable goo making the encounter much easier than it is supposed to be and therefore is a bug exploit
People should be banned if they down Blood Council if shadow prison bugs out because without shadow prison this HC encounter just becomes a Normal encounter. They should instead force wipe and redo and hope shadow prison works the next try.
People should be banned if they stack tombs on Sindragosa because there is no aoe damage that is supposed to kill them if they stack.
People should be banned if they stun/cyclone the Valkyrs in Lich King on all modes instead of DPSing them down to either half hp on HC or completely on Normal because as with the other bug exploits this just makes the encounter much more easier since the raid doesnt need to worry about dpsing the valks but instead just need to stun them.

Please do tell me if i have missed any other major bugs that the server has been known to exploit as I would hate to see people get away with abusing these bugs. None of these encounters are fully scripted but I suppose just as with LK we should also patiently wait for our devs to fully script all of these bosses too in order for us to be able to down each and every boss the proper way.

[belendor]

I'm tempted to post the whole conversation here...
I wont for 3 reasons.

no1 wants to see my nub qeustions about STR commands.
no1 wants to see me brag about what i do in raids.
no1 wants to see personal stuff said by either of us.

I will post the other stuff.

[belendor]

here goes. I know it is edited, But the parts that i left out are noone of your damn business.
http://imgur.com/a/WwD1B

[belendor]

here goes. I know it is edited, But the parts that i left out are noone of your damn business.
http://imgur.com/a/WwD1B

start with the 20:00
make ur own time line. seems imgur fked up the order >.>

[mcheka]

While this is slightly off-topic to LK25hc exactly, it's relevant and since it's been mentioned multiple times in this thread:

Ragnorak (and others), you draw illustrative parallels between bug abusing at LK25hc and bug abusing at other bosses, but in doing so you also confuse *active* bug abuse, and unintentionally abusing bugs - i.e. no matter how hard you try, it's not possible to avoid the bug (and don't make the argument that it's impossible to avoid the LK25hc ones as well):

Marrow tank taunting is something tanks CHOOSE to do, and should be bannable.
Gunship mage bugging is something stunners CHOOSE to do, and should also be bannable.
This is also true of Sindragosa tomb stacking, and one thus far unmentioned: letting ret pallies, MM hunters, and frost DKs get bite priorities on BQL *just because* those classes are bugged and will deal huge damage (i.e. they're 6th on the DPS list but get first bite anyway). However, killing Fester or Saurfang are not active bug abuses... no matter what, you can't "force" PP to throw goo at fester or "force" blood beasts to deal their normal damage... you can't ban for those - at most, you can remove the encounters altogether until they are fixed. The BPC one is a bit tricky, because one could simply wipe a bunch of times on purpose until they get an attempt with no shadow prison stacking, but otherwise it's similar to Saurfang and Fester... you didn't do something on purpose as a raid leader to avoid the shadow prisons (short of purposely wiping until they were gone).

[Nyeriah]

BPC bug is not an "out of luck" bug. There's something that causes it and I know some people are aware of it as I've received whispers from some people while raiding. I won't mention what does for obvious reasons.

[mcheka]

Then we chalk that one up as a potentially bannable bug, along with the others - which are definitely abused on purpose... except for Fester/Saurfang, which aren't being actively exploited.

[Ragnorak]

Ragnorak (and others), you draw illustrative parallels between bug abusing at LK25hc and bug abusing at other bosses, but in doing so you also confuse *active* bug abuse, and unintentionally abusing bugs - i.e. no matter how hard you try, it's not possible to avoid the bug (and don't make the argument that it's impossible to avoid the LK25hc ones as well):

Marrow tank taunting is something tanks CHOOSE to do, and should be bannable.
Gunship mage bugging is something stunners CHOOSE to do, and should also be bannable.
This is also true of Sindragosa tomb stacking, and one thus far unmentioned: letting ret pallies, MM hunters, and frost DKs get bite priorities on BQL *just because* those classes are bugged and will deal huge damage (i.e. they're 6th on the DPS list but get first bite anyway). However, killing Fester or Saurfang are not active bug abuses... no matter what, you can't "force" PP to throw goo at fester or "force" blood beasts to deal their normal damage... you can't ban for those - at most, you can remove the encounters altogether until they are fixed. The BPC one is a bit tricky, because one could simply wipe a bunch of times on purpose until they get an attempt with no shadow prison stacking, but otherwise it's similar to Saurfang and Fester... you didn't do something on purpose as a raid leader to avoid the shadow prisons (short of purposely wiping until they were gone).

Taking all of this into account we also see numerous times that the phrase "abuse is abuse" reiterated countless times as well on this very same thread. And seeing how the definition of a bug exploit is... "Exploits are bugs in the program that make it (too) easy to gain level, money, items, points (arena and honor), player kills, etc and should be immediately reported.". Then by our server's very own definition of a bug exploit every single example I have listed does indeed fall underneath this category as it is a bug in the program that makes a certain aspect of the game easier than it should be. Slarmin also said that we should wait for things to be fully scripted and forget about bosses like these. It does not matter whether you choose to exploit or not since in the end it is exploit. You can choose whether or not to raid ICC and by choosing to raid ICC one can argue that you are choosing to exploit bugs that as you said urself cannot be avoided. And seeing how it is impossible for GMs to monitor every single ICC raid to make sure that every single boss is being done properly without being exploited it would seem like the only logical solution would be to close down ICC altogether. It doesn't matter if it brings back server raid progression because according to Slarmin these bosses shouldn't be killed so soon with all these bugs and that we have to wait until the right time in order to do it.

[Ragnorak]

Anyways it seems like Nyeriah was able to fix the issue with the vile spirits therefore making this entire topic pointless and probably should be locked. Thanks again Nyeriah <3

[Blacklustersoldier]

And this whole drama could've been avoided, if the fixes for LK would've been done earlier, or finished first and then have the announcement made.

And one more thing, if the staff knows about a certain bug exploit, and knows 100% that people know about it, and they exploit it, but do nothing againt the BUG, I repeat, the BUG, then the staff sees it as an okay thing, and people are allowed to exploit it. I understand that scripting takes time, and is dificult, but look at what nyeriah did, fixed 3 bugs in the LK script in one day...
Can things be fixed? ofc they can be fixed. Do they take time? some more than others. And slar, you were told by BLUEBELL because she was the one who kept asking me about LK and how to kill him, and since nothing in that fight is a secret, she was asking me stuff for about 30 minutes, next day we see this.

"you didn't even ask us if you can abuse certain stuff in fight" excuse me.... we asked if it's allowed to use judgement of justice in raid encounters on the adds or bosses on wednesday, we were told not to use them on bosses cause it's an exploit, what we weren't told is that the bosses can STILL receive the debuff, just not be affected by it, giving a paladin the chance to not overwrite the PROT pala's JOL, or the holy pala's jol cause they heal for 5% more, or cause extra threat. WE weren't told that ADDS can be JOJ-ed, without any consequence because there is nothing on the internet that states otherwise

we preety much asked stuff before atempting, and we were always given half completed answers

either way thank you nyeriah for the fixes, hope more will come, and fuck omega wow for copy pasting out scripts... that server is going to die anyway

[Justicelight]

Thanks Nyeriah.

[testeromir]

Good job Nyeriah, although I must admit Blackluster has right, in my opinion staff should have announced after the fixes were implemented, lot of misunderstandings and drama would not happen at all.