Primal Raiding Scene (Sep '17)

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Celerity
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Re: Primal Raiding Scene (Sep '17)

#16 » Post by Celerity » 09 Sep 2017 02:15

Helo friends,

I'm going to cautiously poke my head in on this conversation. I say cautiously because very often when I say anything as of late in world chat, my head gets ripped off. :)

This may get a little wordy, but please understand that I mean no harm. I am just going to point some things out that I have noticed from my perspective.

Regarding the HP concerns on bosses that I read above, the fights go faster the more prepared your raid is. Weekly kills on HKM/Gruul/Mag for Murmur have become progressively shorter since release. The first week that both were available at the same time we killed each raid on separate nights within the 3 hour time frame while the strategies got fine tuned. Now we typically finish the 25 man content in about an hour and a half on the same night. I think most would agree that this is not exactly a long time considering vanilla raids in the past. Onyxia was a similar situation.

Karazhan typically gets cleared in 4 hours, most groups opting to go beyond our normal 3 hour raid allotment and finish the raid in one night. The only thing that consistently throws people for a loop is Netherspite, but that's to be expected considering the high DPS requirement to kill this boss regularly with the issues currently plaguing it. I have reported two broken mechanics that would help make this fight easier and there is another that I have seen in raids, but cannot replicate on the PTR. I am at a loss as to how to even report that without proof. (Red Beam debuff drops off and sometimes drops the tank to 1HP)

I think it comes down to preparation for these raids. You can't go into these raids missing enchants or gear and expect it to be a walk in the park. I'm not saying anyone is in this thread either, so please don't read into my words as an attack, I'm just simply stating what we do to prepare. Every single person has their enchants, prebis, and knows their class within a certain range of knowledge, some more, some less, but not inexperienced or without being coached by another player. Most of our DPS is well over 1.5k. It helps when you have people that want to clear content fast.

I say this because I feel (personally) that a lot of the complaints that I read in world or on the forums are from people who are not as prepared. This content is end game content, so shouldn't it be harder to clear?

Again, not trying to stir the pot, but from my perspective where we don't have issues clearing content, I wonder how I can reach a hand out to help without getting bitten. I am genuinely interested in coaching other guilds during NA times, and also hosting a PUG for 25 mans on off nights. Teaching people how to prepare and run the 25 man content that they are struggling with is something that I would enjoy to be a part of because it helps the server, but I don't have the time or patience for the demonizing that has occurred since I took over the reigns of Murmur in July. I won't pretend to be as benevolent as Kurthos has been in the past concerning these matters.

But I will do this. I will apologize for some things that have happened in the past in the hopes that it will at least open the door to a more friendlier future.

I apologize for organizing the only graveyard farming instance I was a part of during EU Naxx raids for VK and DTP. That was something that I definitely should not have had a part in, and as an officer, should have put down. I promise to never condone that kind of thing going forward, as I gave my word to Kurthos when it happened that I would never do it again considering the position it put him in.

I apologize for any perceived "poaching" that anyone may have experienced. It is not my policy, nor the policy that the guild has adopted, to "poach" anyone from any guild. We do, however, accept any player from any guild if they wish to join us due to a conflict of personality, lack of progression, or whatever issues they may have. We just ask that they leave that at the door and start fresh. If that has happened or been attempted, it has happened without my knowledge and I would ask that the instances be reported to me so I can handle this with those players in question.

I apologize for being involved in a upper level demotion that I actually had nothing to do with, other than the fact that I was an officer of the guild. This instance in particular has created an enormous amount of grief for myself and I feel that posting in world chat is not safe because a certain individual has resorted to comments wishing my death. I have no understanding of where this hostility has come from other than the possibility that the person is under the assumption that I had a direct hand in the reason for their demotion. I say this here, because it's no secret to those on during NA times. I apologize directly to that person, though I doubt this will make much difference because the hate they feel is on the deepest levels. I am sorry that I cannot mend that.

I'm not sure if there's anything else I can realistically apologize for as everything else I've done here has been for the betterment of my guild and for the server. I have resources at my disposal and to a certain point I am willing to share them with those that want the help. I will be working on finding availability for people to potentially run a NA PUG with some guild alts and whoever else wishes to attend in the next week or two. Navigating this while doing our own 25-Mans and 3 Karazhan groups will be challenging but I feel that it is necessary to do for the sake of the NA half of the server.

A house divided will not stand. I am willing to work with anyone if their goal is to better the server. That's one of the few reasons I'm still here: This place is my home online.

I'll leave it up to the players who frequent NA times to decide whether or not they would like our help.
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Fitzpatrick
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Re: Primal Raiding Scene (Sep '17)

#17 » Post by Fitzpatrick » 09 Sep 2017 03:07

Spec issues are a red herring in my opinion. From what Ive played and played with, 2 of 27 specs arent working perfectly in that they need support to be viable on raid boss kills and are otherwise fine. Im sure we can find ways to bring up those two and there is no need to hijack threads about it.

Im surprised I was so off about whos raiding 25s. I suppose we just happen to be the only EU guild doing them, which is odd considering the history of the servers. I will try to funnel players interested in raiding in to your guilds.

Also, who is active in Murmur leadership at the moment?
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Celerity
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Re: Primal Raiding Scene (Sep '17)

#18 » Post by Celerity » 09 Sep 2017 04:03

I agree about spec issues being a red herring as well. I find more often than not a player's inflexibility is what keeps the player from progressing through content. That doesn't mean that these issues shouldn't be looked at, but when it comes to viable raiding, the player should be ready to accept playing a different role if their class has access to it. I've had to go from primarily being a hunter to swapping to priest (both roles), tanking on different characters, and DPS'ing as other classes just to keep things running smoothly since July. I don't complain because I find it a bigger and more enjoyable challenge that just locking myself to one class. A lot of our members have prebis geared OS for that reason, and due to that, they are able to fill roles that they otherwise wouldn't be able to which makes scheduling Karazhan a LOT easier IMO, especially with multiple groups and people with varied schedules.

At the moment from the "old guard," Azusa, Trixshadow, Rhianne, Redzone (returned from early days of Vanilla), Randomize, Brettyb, Daedal, Ungar, Femsham, Whammy (me) are still officers and very much still active. Newer officers that are of Council rank are Dayalu, Imagine, Cumber, and Raucous. The majority of the EU players that were officers are defunct as they left to start Immersion and have since disbanded. We still keep in contact as they are an excellent source of information, plus all around good people.

I agree about the EU side of the server being a bit strange considering the history. Very strange indeed.

At the moment, Murmur is sitting on a solid team of approximately 30 individual players that are raid ready, and a good number of players currently leveling. We would certainly accept more people that are looking to raid that are willing to go deep but there are other options as well on the NA side of things. Exalted Reputation, Apathy, and Logic are working among themselves to do PUGs for 25-Man content that a few of our members attend on alts. I'm sure their guild leadership wouldn't say no to a few new members to help them get closer to clearing all content every week.
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Re: Primal Raiding Scene (Sep '17)

#19 » Post by loveable » 09 Sep 2017 07:56

thx for trying to fill some 25 man raid , but lets see from other side
by doing this , u r ending server faster than anything
u make a 25 man raid with other guild's raiders , ofc they will leav their guild to join your guild on this way after few raids
so there will be only 1 2 active guild and others will be completly deactive and no chance for weak raiders or none english ppl , ...
is better to do this if u realy care about this :
make an alt and join other guilds , and join their raids , so other guilds will have 25/25 raid too and their bad raiders can be better by the time and can learn more
there are 7 day in week , 7 day for raid , with several time in day , so there will be no problem with raid time too
noone forced players to do raids only in wednsday or thursday or etc
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dgreenbe
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Re: Primal Raiding Scene (Sep '17)

#20 » Post by dgreenbe » 09 Sep 2017 09:04

Celerity wrote:
09 Sep 2017 02:15
I apologize for any perceived "poaching" that anyone may have experienced.
To the contrary, "poaching" is basically what this thread is calling for. If one guild is struggling because it's missing a couple good players and another guild is a bit too large to merge into another guild but has almost no hope of clearing 25s, the solution if for a few dedicated players from the smaller guild to join your guild. Maybe that's "poaching." Maybe that would be a more legit "merge" if those players joined your raiding core and the other players joined your guild but rarely got a raiding spot. IDK. But this is what we're talking about: salvaging dedicated players from guilds with issues.
Fitzpatrick wrote:
09 Sep 2017 03:07
Spec issues are a red herring in my opinion.
The issue is very much related, as I explained, but let's try just one example to illustrate this. Let's say your guild has an ele shaman, a hunter, an arms warrior, and a ret paladin. Your guild has 2 DPS spots open for raiding, maybe 3 tops. Another guild is struggling and their core decides to merge/join your guild. Their core is comprised of a ret paladin, a hunter, a fury warrior, an ele shaman, and a feral cat druid. Let's assume all these players have equal skill and gear, or even as the list of this core goes on they even have *more* gear but, of course, less DPS. Which players get the raid spots in your guild?

Naturally, you (maybe not specifically you, but a hypothetical reasonable guild officer focused on progress in T5) take the high DPS specs. The lower DPS guys stay raiding in a guild stripped of some of its best DPS, so it merges with another guild that is similarly stripped and they have very little chance of raiding successfully.
Fitzpatrick wrote:
09 Sep 2017 03:07
Im surprised I was so off about whos raiding 25s. I suppose we just happen to be the only EU guild doing them,
I believe New Horizon is clearing 25s every week in EU times.
loveable wrote:
09 Sep 2017 07:56
by doing this , u r ending server faster than anything
This would lower population fast, but the idea is fast surgical procedures to save what can be saved. If two guilds are both struggling and hemorrhaging good players because they don't have anything close to a strong, full roster, it makes sense to combine the strengths of these guilds and raid successfully, thereby saving two guilds and a lot of people. Sometimes a lot of people in these guilds--low dedication, low attendance, low gear, or one of the bad specs mentioned above--won't be able to get a raid spot anymore in the new guild, at least not immediately. Sometimes, as you say, a few players will join a new guild and leave their old guild to rot. But the point is that guild was probably going to rot anyway, so this approach has a higher chance of success than the status quo.

Additionally, these merges might give preraid-geared players the opportunity to get carried a little in Kara on off-nights if the new guild's core is nice and doesn't mind still doing Kara.

You're right that ideally people will raid perfectly spread out on all nights, and raid quickly so they can do so, but that requires a higher population and a number of geared alts that simply don't exist (back to jetteroo's point about leveling alts here, especially to 60).

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Re: Primal Raiding Scene (Sep '17)

#21 » Post by Flooded » 09 Sep 2017 12:21

If you feel there is something that makesa specific class specialization lacking and you want it addressed, please submit suggestions including proposed solutions to those problems.

We are very interested in making each spec and class balanced, but we need community feedback about how those changes should be made. So far, we've made changes to the Protection Paladin and Resto druid specializations based on community posts in the suggestion forum.

1) Identify and isolate the specific issues hindering a class.
2) Provide proof that you have expended all resources at your disposal as a player such as experimenting with different talent builds, consumables, and rotations to the best of your ability. Show us that you've done your best to find a solution as you can inform us more about the problem.
3) Propose a solution to the issues preventing a class from being competitive and post them in the suggestion forums.

This gives us the information we need to balance classes. We don't want to make decisions based on the feedback of the few.

Regards.

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Re: Primal Raiding Scene (Sep '17)

#22 » Post by Fitzpatrick » 09 Sep 2017 13:11

You guys should consider advertising in /world somewhat more frequently. It can be annoying if guild adverts are spammed, but at the same time I have run across multiple people looking for a home to 25 man raid in. If you guys are honestly clearing 25man content weekly and I was completely oblivious, other people likely are too. In fact, I had heard the opposite about a number of your guilds from people who should probably have known better.
Last edited by Fitzpatrick on 09 Sep 2017 13:27, edited 1 time in total.
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dgreenbe
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Re: Primal Raiding Scene (Sep '17)

#23 » Post by dgreenbe » 09 Sep 2017 13:21

Also agree 100% on more guild advertisements. There's very little transparency on which guilds exist, are at which stage of raiding, and what their recruitment needs are. Focus should be figuring out good merges if possible, but guild info should help.

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dgreenbe
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Re: Primal Raiding Scene (Sep '17)

#24 » Post by dgreenbe » 15 Sep 2017 20:40

Any updates on any possible guild merges, or guilds open to merging?

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.Venna
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Re: Primal Raiding Scene (Sep '17)

#25 » Post by .Venna » 16 Sep 2017 03:06

There is a post for guilds to list themselves so that people know which guild is which. viewtopic.php?f=19&t=33939 However people don't put in the thread when a guild disbands, and most don't post their guild there in the first place.

Apathy raids 25mans, and has two kara teams. Apart from Murmur, I cannot think off the top of my head which other US guilds do this. Most are jsut Kara oriented and I don't know what they will do when SSC comes out. I guess we will see some merges.
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Re: Primal Raiding Scene (Sep '17)

#26 » Post by loveable » 17 Sep 2017 07:55

personally i've an issue for raids , thats why im deactive and not playing this days
all raids are 19svt or 20svt or .... which is very bad for me , because as i saw in primal-wow filling a 10 man raid takes atleast 1h to arrange (because Raid leaders thinks to much about inv who or etc) beside how long will take these raids for :?: reason (its a record to do half of kara in 3 4h and save few last boss for later :lol: )
also im not enough skilled to join other raids because i dont use discord LOOL :roll: :lol: :lol:
i tried to make a guild for my time zone (16~17 svt) but sadly there are not many player for this time zone , there were like 10~15 but they left for :?: reason again
So raids are only active @ USA time , So all of this topics are kinda useless & cant help raids , cuz same ppl will do same raid @ same time in Different Raid (Raid leader)
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Re: Primal Raiding Scene (Sep '17)

#27 » Post by Meladath » 18 Sep 2017 13:04

The huge number of problems that TBC bosses + the new core had upon TBC release basically killed primals scene I think. Immersion, REBIRTH, Aftershock amongst others are gone. I personally haven't been playing on primal much the past month or so, but New Horizon clears kara each week and downs gruul and maggy but only just, we have had kills without a full raid simply because people were not there.

58 online right now... thats less than 1/3 of what I had begun to expect as the norm for primal. Granted its not prime time, but still less than 100 online is not good.

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