Whats going on with our server?

Archive of discussions that have went stale. Lots o' dust over here!
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Nyeriah

Re: Whats going on with our server?

#16 » Post by Nyeriah » 21 Aug 2017 14:17

Meladath wrote:
21 Aug 2017 14:10
Isn't this why almost every "successful" (warmane, nost etc) private server either has their own fork, or only applies trinitycore updates like once every few months? Sounds like complete development hell merging in fixes from a core like that so often, and will produce the effect it is indeed producing, an unstable environment where you are fighting new fires every other day.

EDIT: Especially when a lot of the bugs produced by the trinitycore commits themselves will be fixed later on down the line by other trinitycore commits!
It doesn't matter if you merge today or in a month from now if you are still going to have fresh commits in regardless. One would assume Trinity would fix their problems in a reliable amount of time, but since untested things are often published, you can't even expect them to be aware of the issue at most times.

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Catacus
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Re: Whats going on with our server?

#17 » Post by Catacus » 21 Aug 2017 14:44

Lay persons questions here:

Does that mean that the server is going to be unpredictably updated all the time? How are the staff looking to deal with that if it's the case?

Our issues are with predictability and communication (which is being adressed here, thank you <3). If the server is randomly restarting we can not reliably raid. And recently the server has basically gone offline/restarted every prime time EU raid...don't know about the US raids, sorry. How can we raid when at any time during the riad the server might just reset?

We do VERY much appreciate all the hard work you are putting in, but from the sounds of it there needs to be a clear plan put into place with regards to updates/restarts, or else chaos ensues :S

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IronSharona
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Re: Whats going on with our server?

#18 » Post by IronSharona » 21 Aug 2017 15:08

Catacus wrote:
21 Aug 2017 14:44
Lay persons questions here:

Does that mean that the server is going to be unpredictably updated all the time? How are the staff looking to deal with that if it's the case?

Our issues are with predictability and communication (which is being adressed here, thank you <3). If the server is randomly restarting we can not reliably raid. And recently the server has basically gone offline/restarted every prime time EU raid...don't know about the US raids, sorry. How can we raid when at any time during the riad the server might just reset?

We do VERY much appreciate all the hard work you are putting in, but from the sounds of it there needs to be a clear plan put into place with regards to updates/restarts, or else chaos ensues :S
Most major updates we do give warning when they take place. The problem is that some updates have long reaching effects that we don't see crashes from until much later. It is often like being a doctor. They are not paid to fix the problem, per se, but to diagnose it. Once the problem is isolated it is usually comparatively easy to backtrack and apply fixes. As a result, it's difficult to give time estimates on fixes. Once we diagnose, it can be quick, but diagnosis can take a couple of iterations of crashes before we're certain and the right people are here to address it.

The reason the server has more crashes during peak raid times is BECAUSE it is peak raid times. The more players are online and staff are working, the more likely it is someone will trigger a new reason for a crash. We can only take them as they come and do our best to plan how to stop that exact reason for a crash before we can spend the longer amount of time necessary to do a "true" fix. What fixes one type of crash may not help another so there isn't a one size fits all solution.

TL;DR - we are not intentionally pushing updates that require restarts with no warning unless we are 99.9% sure they will fix a bug that WILL cause a server crash in the immediate future. Most updates can be applied silently in the background and wait for the next crash or restart to apply themselves. You will just have follow the progress and activities of staff to ensure you feel confident that each crash is progress to a more stable place and that new issues are being isolated and fixed even in the times you may be offline.
Welcome to the new decade! Let's hope the Roaring 20's come with just as much jazz, but a bit less prohibition and Great Depression. 8-)

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Storm
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Re: Whats going on with our server?

#19 » Post by Storm » 21 Aug 2017 15:54

Catacus wrote:
21 Aug 2017 14:44
Lay persons questions here:

Does that mean that the server is going to be unpredictably updated all the time? How are the staff looking to deal with that if it's the case?

Our issues are with predictability and communication (which is being adressed here, thank you <3). If the server is randomly restarting we can not reliably raid. And recently the server has basically gone offline/restarted every prime time EU raid...don't know about the US raids, sorry. How can we raid when at any time during the riad the server might just reset?

We do VERY much appreciate all the hard work you are putting in, but from the sounds of it there needs to be a clear plan put into place with regards to updates/restarts, or else chaos ensues :S
Hey Cata :)

:!: First, Note i am nothing to do with TW/PW anymore so this is solely my opinion. :!:

For the first question, The server has to be kept upto date to recieve anything of benefit from Trinity, as Nyeriah said putting it off is delaying the inevitable. So yes for now the server will keep being updated.
In terms of how staff deal with it, short of someone being available post crash to help with any issues (re-clearing trash for raids etc) there isnt a huge amount the staff can really do, but even that requires someone to be free at just the right time when tickets tend to flood in because of things caused by the crash.
In terms of crashes where the server gets stuck, this requires a senior dev to then reboot the server, this again comes down to getting hold of someone to make sure a reboot can happen.

So, to maybe ask a diffferent question or try and help the team out a little, if these crashes do continue, what could the staff do to help mitigate the impact of them and make it a little less chaotic? (plz no crash non-withstanding)

Again, i think all the staff sympathise with how much these crashes really suck, its more what direction Roel/The Senior Team take to try and resolve the issues, none of the paths are easy.

Hope i answered something!

Itburns/Storm

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SilverWolf
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Re: Whats going on with our server?

#20 » Post by SilverWolf » 21 Aug 2017 17:12

What is the process for testing and deploying Trinity Core updates? Do we put them on the PTR for a week first and have testers try things out, or do they go directly to the live server? Do we have any kind of automated unit-testing that runs against a dev version of the code after a merge to make sure things still work? Do we need more people testing on PTR to find these things before they are moved to PW/TW?

If there are things we as a community can do to help, please let us know.

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Nyeriah

Re: Whats going on with our server?

#21 » Post by Nyeriah » 21 Aug 2017 17:42

Whenever something important is going live its posted at the PTR one week before, this time I even posted in the public forums. The maintenance schedule is posted at viewtopic.php?f=92&t=14626 but we should probably see the maintenance day changed to the weekend due to time constraints.

We could use more active testers (not necessarily the guys with the white title).

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Storm
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Re: Whats going on with our server?

#22 » Post by Storm » 21 Aug 2017 18:03

Without a high amount of PTR testing (in terms of numbers) to test each Trinity update, i'd doubt it would make much change. As IronSharona said, crashes tend to happen at peak times because of fact they are peak. More people=more potential to hit something that will crash.

I cant say how much work updating the PTR a week ahead would be, its something that could possibly be tested. but it would need a lot community investment too. Nyeriah any comment?

In terms of Nyeriah's comments on testers, with SSC coming up soon, testing bosses/trash are as they should be is probably a good place to start.

In terms of crashes, if you think you are doing something that might have crashed the server. Make a ticket about it so it can be investigated. Never assume the GMs already know.

Storm/Itburns

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IronSharona
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Re: Whats going on with our server?

#23 » Post by IronSharona » 21 Aug 2017 18:26

Storm wrote:
21 Aug 2017 18:03
I cant say how much work updating the PTR a week ahead would be, its something that could possibly be tested. but it would need a lot community investment too. Nyeriah any comment?

...

In terms of Nyeriah's comments on testers, with SSC coming up soon, testing bosses/trash are as they should be is probably a good place to start.
I believe what she said is that is ALREADY the way it's done. Nothing new we need to implement. We're just considering changing the day of the week the updates push to have better support on hand.

...

Yes, bosses and trash working properly are arguably the easiest thing to test on PTR. Particularly things like whether or not the correct spells are being cast by enemies. Those reports are very simple to resolve and even I am able to do enough dev work to get simpler cases like that fixed. Correct loot drops as well are a priority that is simple to test and simple to fix. The more we know about the current state, the faster we can get to an improved state!
Welcome to the new decade! Let's hope the Roaring 20's come with just as much jazz, but a bit less prohibition and Great Depression. 8-)

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Re: Whats going on with our server?

#24 » Post by Jiranthos » 21 Aug 2017 19:21

Looks like everyone is understanding everything correctly. Happy to see that. :)

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necropola
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Re: Whats going on with our server?

#25 » Post by necropola » 21 Aug 2017 20:58

I think TC-3.3.5 needs an official reference server, i. e. a server that is constantly updated from 3.3.5 branch with enough (50-100) players trying to actually play on it with many of them being GM to get past (known to be broken) quests or mechanics. This may help to identify and solve problems that were introduced by certain TC commits early and for everyone.
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oooooooooolde
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Re: Whats going on with our server?

#26 » Post by oooooooooolde » 21 Aug 2017 21:40

So my understanding is that we're in an endless loop of applying TC updates which breaks stuff at random times. This sucks for raiding period. I don't see a solution to the problem other than branching out from trinity core - atleast for the remainder of TBC. I'd like an explanation as to why we are taking in new untested trinitycore updates, as it seems very counterproductive to me. It doesn't matter that you're working hard when you get stuff thrown in constantly from the sideline.

"It doesn't matter if you merge today or in a month from now if you are still going to have fresh commits in regardless."

It does matter for raiding. Yes you're eventually gonna need to apply it if you wanna keep up, but our current situation is a living hell, which should be your number one priority to fix.

IMO Primal is unplayable at the moment and I unfortunately have to part ways with the project since I don't want to be in years more of "catch-up" with trinitycore. Primal worked great in vanilla, and I have to agree with a lot of the ex-truewow players who left when you updated their core. It's been referred to as a short term inconvenience , but it isnt when you alienate the vast majority of your playerbase.

Good luck forwards, hopefully you'll find a way to push forward, but I don't agree with your current strategy.

-Juve

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Eronox
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Re: Whats going on with our server?

#27 » Post by Eronox » 21 Aug 2017 22:01

Read the reason to why we shouldn't stop with it and then weight the scenarios,
nevertheless sad to see you go
.

There's things that never will be right I know, and things need changin' everywhere you go.
But 'til we start to make a move to make a few things right,
You'll never see me wear a suit of white.

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Re: Whats going on with our server?

#28 » Post by flosr1 » 21 Aug 2017 23:26

i did not think i might ever write this, but i have to agree with JUVE here. i mean there are SSC videos released when the old stuff is not even being fixed "because we want to keep people busy with new raids" that what kurthos would write now probably. THATS exactly the reason why so many people left. like Juve said, we had like 700 people online at the start of TBC. This server could have been so great if it had been properly tested before and if herocis had been working on release. but no, you had to push it to keep people "entertained". you could have delayed TBC release for a month. same with T$ raids. and fixed stuff instead, but no, you wanted to be smarter and ignored stuff like that.


btw. 90% of my guild is not logging in because of this atm. we did not even have enough for a kara raid this week, while we had 4 kara grps 2 weeks ago. while you can question Majin's behavior, his guild is gone. Immersion is gone... How many guilds have to leave until you listen to what the community wants?

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jetteroo
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Re: Whats going on with our server?

#29 » Post by jetteroo » 22 Aug 2017 02:53

I would caution against pushing out new content quickly. I know that it's good advert and certain peeps who finished current content want it but we should try to fix current stability and bugs before coming out with new stuff that could jeopardize the stability of the server.

Clearly recent issues with northcraft helped our population a little. But we need to build on that by ensuring better stability, scripting etc. A good corecommunity is also important in attracting new peeps. It takes sooo long to attract new peeps and it only takes a short period of constant bad news to take that good work away.

I know it's a lot of hard work to keep the server running well, I really appreciate it and I'm sure most peeps do. But as above mentioned we had decent pop even before tbc was introduced, so we dun need as much new content as stability, good scripting, less bugs and a good community.

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kurthos
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Re: Whats going on with our server?

#30 » Post by kurthos » 22 Aug 2017 04:05

flosr1 wrote:
21 Aug 2017 23:26
i did not think i might ever write this, but i have to agree with JUVE here. i mean there are SSC videos released when the old stuff is not even being fixed "because we want to keep people busy with new raids" that what kurthos would write now probably. THATS exactly the reason why so many people left. like Juve said, we had like 700 people online at the start of TBC. This server could have been so great if it had been properly tested before and if herocis had been working on release. but no, you had to push it to keep people "entertained". you could have delayed TBC release for a month. same with T$ raids. and fixed stuff instead, but no, you wanted to be smarter and ignored stuff like that.


btw. 90% of my guild is not logging in because of this atm. we did not even have enough for a kara raid this week, while we had 4 kara grps 2 weeks ago. while you can question Majin's behavior, his guild is gone. Immersion is gone... How many guilds have to leave until you listen to what the community wants?
What exactly do you think they can do that the staff isn't already doing? You are doing two things here: you are firstly blaming stale content on the staff as if it were a planned occurrence. SSC release is planned for October 2017 and had been for over a year. It's been publicly known since march of this year. Secondly, you are shaming the staff as if they don't understand what's going on with the server.

Every time you talk, it is never constructive. Every post you make is the same thing. What can the staff do that is more than they are already doing?

Where was your criticism when I was asking for help over a year ago to test endgame vanilla and TBC content?

I begged the server for more help testing content and preparing for TBC, Naxx40, and AQ40 releases. Begged players that include several of you who now post here.

In my eyes, you don't deserve to play here. There are many people who do deserve a better server than PrimalWoW currently is, but you specifically, deserve exactly what you have now.

Toxicity breeds toxicity, and you are quite the overflowing pool.

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