[Rejected] Increase base arena points for 3s and/or 5s

Would you like higher (non scaling) rating for 3v3/5v5?

Yes, 400AP for 3v3 and 500AP for 5v5 sounds good.
10
34%
No, I would like it to stay the same as before.
19
66%
 
Total votes: 29

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Doctor_J
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Re: Increase base arena points for 3s and/or 5s

#16 » Post by Doctor_J » 14 Oct 2016 16:19

Gnurg wrote:
Doctor_J wrote:Think only way of revitalizing arenas has been suggested a few times before but was not wanted is to downgrade all wrathful items to relentless at the end of each of arena season to emulate a new arena season as we dont have any pvp gear higher than wrathful to offer and this is the reason why arena is dead as a lot of players are already full wrathful and have nothing to spend arena points on other than gems so they dont bother queueing or just que for the bare minimum games each week but this could also rebound too.

Meaning it could bounce back and cause population loss too as im sure some people would just leave server rather than do arenas again to re-obtain gear they had already earnt once.

So it could both ways it could get people interested in arenas again but could also cause loss of some more population.

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Re: Increase base arena points for 3s and/or 5s

#17 » Post by Doctor_J » 14 Oct 2016 16:25

and that was not in relation to 3s/5s specifically but reason why arenas are dead on tw is because a lot of players already have full wrathful gear and have nothing to spend arena points on other than gems so either dont bother queueing at all or just do bare minimum games each week and spend ap on gems to sell.

While players already have max ilvl pvp gear there is not really much use to doing arenas at all

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Re: Increase base arena points for 3s and/or 5s

#18 » Post by Gnurg » 14 Oct 2016 21:03

Doctor_J wrote:and that was not in relation to 3s/5s specifically but reason why arenas are dead on tw is because a lot of players already have full wrathful gear and have nothing to spend arena points on other than gems so either dont bother queueing at all or just do bare minimum games each week and spend ap on gems to sell.

While players already have max ilvl pvp gear there is not really much use to doing arenas at all
But this suggestion isn't about the old players. It's to motivate new players to join by giving them an easier start, which is important as they are the future of TW's PvP scene.

Right now, you queue up as a new team (furious gear) and face fully geared/experienced players, which stomp you in seconds. Is this fun or reward? Do you get 'better' from this? No, not at all. Looking through the arena ladder, you will see that a lot of new players do only 10-20 games a season, which implies that they get fed up with the system, where they have 'lose' 10 games a week to pick up 1/3 of a relentless piece.

If they instead can just find 10 random casual players (maybe at the same skill level), do some 5v5 marches together, then I am certain they will have a much better/jolly time than what they currently experience. -- Eventually they should be geared (1 month with my suggestion) and experienced enough to take on the challenges of the 'cometetive' ladder (2v2).

The first step is to encourage them by making 3v3/5v5 a more appealing choice for new PvP players and I personally believe my suggestion should cover that.



As it stands now, 7 are in favour and 17 in disfsvour. I would like to know why you are in disfavour of the suggestion. I would encourage you to look at it from a beginner's point of view.
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Re: Increase base arena points for 3s and/or 5s

#19 » Post by Royo » 14 Oct 2016 22:19

Why do you keep saying "new PvP players"? What new people where are they? There aren't any "new people" coming bro. In arenas (or PvP in general), it's been the same old people for the longest time. If some of these people end up moving to the other brackets, that would make the 2s more dead than what it already is.

The reason I used 2s as a base is because not everybody is going to move to the other brackets. You'd be lucky if half of them moved.

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Re: Increase base arena points for 3s and/or 5s

#20 » Post by Longi » 14 Oct 2016 22:32

Royo wrote:Why do you keep saying "new PvP players"? What new people where are they? There aren't any "new people" coming bro. In arenas (or PvP in general), it's been the same old people for the longest time. If some of these people end up moving to the other brackets, that would make the 2s more dead than what it already is.

The reason I used 2s as a base is because not everybody is going to move to the other brackets. You'd be lucky if half of them moved.
This ... listen to this guy, he knows what he is talking about +1

instead of trying to revive 3vs3 and 5vs5 ....try to focus on 2vs2, make something to bring new ppl, things wont change with old players alts :) ( Gnurg is trying to get to live this suggestion tooo hard :D im feeling wintraders in the air :P :D :D , just joking or no :D )


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Re: Increase base arena points for 3s and/or 5s

#21 » Post by Gnurg » 15 Oct 2016 00:02

Royo wrote:Why do you keep saying "new PvP players"? What new people where are they? There aren't any "new people" coming bro. In arenas (or PvP in general), it's been the same old people for the longest time. If some of these people end up moving to the other brackets, that would make the 2s more dead than what it already is.

The reason I used 2s as a base is because not everybody is going to move to the other brackets. You'd be lucky if half of them moved.
If you filter arena ladder by games played, move to like page 13, which is shown below... You'll notice that a lot of players (some new to PvP) played 10 games and after losing a bunch they gave up and didn't do anymore games.

[hide]Image[/hide]

First player I randomly picked from the list had just tried arena for the first time (as you can see by achievement date), but has since September not played any games. Likely due to the fact that he fought full Wrathful Holy Paladin/Warrior in 7 out of 10 games.
[hide]Image[/hide]

Second played I randomly picked from the list hadn't even won a single game. Again, 10 games, then gave up back in June.
[hide]Image[/hide]
You can probably find more examples if you browse through teams with low win-rate and 10-20 games played this season.


The reason, you don't see the new people in PvP is because it's a very tiresome and boring phase until you've gained enough experience and gear to take on the more challenging teams. As the current system stands, who would be motivated to keep going on a losing streak versus teams who have a huge (unfair) advantage, which probably seem unbeatable to them... when it would take a 2.5 months time to pick up the gear set one tier below the current one. And God knows how much time it would take to gain the same 'skills' when you're practically bursted to death in seconds (average game time for the ones I linked above is 2 minutes and that involves atleast 1m of preparation, so 1 minute).

My intention of this suggestion isn't to create a new 3v3/5v5 ladder, like it appears both you and Longi view it as. The players who would be interested in this change is the ones who currently don't have a room in the 2v2 ladder, like maybe the two players I linked above. They have given up on 2v2 and won't decrease the number of players interested in that bracket even if they started doing 3s or 5s.

The idea (once again...) is to make 3v3 and 5v5 the ideal starting zone for new players by directing the very same players there by giving them a higher base reward for playing in those brackets (something already geared players shouldn't have much interest in). Here the more casual players can just gather up (hopefully 10 players together, so they can even out the teams to make the matches more balanced) and just have a jolly time gearing up in a shorter time period (preparing/motivating them to take the next step in competive ladder (2v2)). View 3v3/5v5 like the raid quest <Boss Name> must die! (casual random gang to gear up), while 2v2 would be ICC (with the guild and trying to make it past the next boss).

If you feel that win-trading will be an issue in 3v3 and 5v5 if those brackets got active, then I would suggest you had the gear reward removed from those brackets, but that's another suggestion and something that shouldn't be discussed here.
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Re: Increase base arena points for 3s and/or 5s

#22 » Post by Longi » 15 Oct 2016 00:27

as Doctor_J wrote, if you have Bis there is nothing to do for you, even if they want to play new people will avoid skilled players ( OH GOD its Boxis ! for Jezzus´s ears it´s Keez ! no arena for us today.... you know )
So if new people will get gear faster what they will do next ? again nothing, because there is nothing more to do and Arena will be KO more and more :)

I think most of people who left PVP were leaving simple because of 4 hours in quee and so on, If you dont have enough players, " free " reward wont change system

So lets say we have 10 BIS teams now where players dont have motivation to keep playing, with this boost only thing we will get is 5 more bored teams :D

If people want to play Arenas, they will do that and doesnt matter how hard is get gear, but if you want to play arenas and there are not players for it ... you know


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Re: Increase base arena points for 3s and/or 5s

#23 » Post by Gnurg » 15 Oct 2016 01:06

Longi wrote:as Doctor_J wrote, if you have Bis there is nothing to do for you, even if they want to play new people will avoid skilled players ( OH GOD its Boxis ! for Jezzus´s ears it´s Keez ! no arena for us today.... you know )
So if new people will get gear faster what they will do next ? again nothing, because there is nothing more to do and Arena will be KO more and more :)

I think most of people who left PVP were leaving simple because of 4 hours in quee and so on, If you dont have enough players, " free " reward wont change system

So lets say we have 10 BIS teams now where players dont have motivation to keep playing, with this boost only thing we will get is 5 more bored teams :D

If people want to play Arenas, they will do that and doesnt matter how hard is get gear, but if you want to play arenas and there are not players for it ... you know
Basically you're saying that the 2v2 ladder is built on (some) high rated teams playing against the new teams (because they're afraid of strong teams), which results in the new players giving up arena. Your issue with this suggestion is that if the new teams did 3v3/5v5 (for AP and funz!), then the high rated douchebags can't farm these new teams to reach high rating, making these douchebags leave arena (decreasing the number of teams).

Image

The gear they would get through 3v3/5v5 would only be the relentless gear (as I highly doubt there will be enough interest to bring their rating beyond 1400). Relentless isn't BiS, so they would still have a motivation to keep going for more gear. The only difference between doing this in 2v2 and my 3v3/5v5, is that you would have your relentless set in 1 month rather than 2.5 month and that you are more likely to have a good time collecting that gear.

Don't undermine the fun factor, because if you're not having a good time doing something (in your free time!), you won't keep doing it.
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Re: Increase base arena points for 3s and/or 5s

#24 » Post by Longi » 15 Oct 2016 01:11

your "issue" is if 3v3 and 5v5 is active why do you think skilled players will ignore it :D they want to have fun too and again ppl will cry about gear and skill


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Re: Increase base arena points for 3s and/or 5s

#25 » Post by Gnurg » 15 Oct 2016 01:30

Longi wrote:your "issue" is if 3v3 and 5v5 is active why do you think skilled players will ignore it :D they want to have fun too and again ppl will cry about gear and skill
Gnurg wrote:My intention of this suggestion isn't to create a new 3v3/5v5 ladder, like it appears both you and Longi view it as. The players who would be interested in this change is the ones who currently don't have a room in the 2v2 ladder, like maybe the two players I linked above. They have given up on 2v2 and won't decrease the number of players interested in that bracket even if they started doing 3s or 5s.
3v3 or 5v5 won't become active because of this suggestion. You will get maybe 10-20 3v3/5v5games in total per week, where the outcome of these games might be that someone who wouldn't be an arena player (due to their experience of being stomped in 2s), would give 2v2 a proper chance (where they might win more now that they have actually gotten to play some arena and figured out how it worked).

If some skilled players want to join in on the fun, that's just nice! They could join the mix of the random 10 players, I mentioned above, so the new players could play on the same team as the skilled players (maybe learning a thing or two from them). We actually did that some weeks back, where we tried to balance out two teams with a mix of casual and experienced players. (http://truewow.org/armory/arenateam.php ... er&realm=t, http://truewow.org/armory/ahistory.php? ... ke&realm=t).

Example scenario on how it would work:
1. You gather 6/10 random players.
2. You have 2 team captains (maybe the skilled players you were so worried about).
3. The captains choose their team mates, 1 by 1.
4. You play 10 games, where hopefully the teams got to be even.
5. Arena Points!
6. Repeat for next week with some new and some old players/captains. All casual.
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Re: Increase base arena points for 3s and/or 5s

#26 » Post by Longi » 15 Oct 2016 01:47

Gnurg wrote:
Example scenario on how it would work:
1. You gather 6/10 random players.
2. You have 2 team captains (maybe the skilled players you were so worried about).
3. The captains choose their team mates, 1 by 1.
4. You play 10 games, where hopefully the teams got to be even.
5. Arena Points!
6. Repeat for next week with some new and some old players/captains. All casual.
So basically ....
1. I am team leader who needs arena rating so I find few random guys for my team
2. I have a friend ( second team leader ) who finds his team
3. We choose name ( Wintrade one , Wintrade two )
4. We play 10 games, One "good" team setup will win always, second " bad " team setup will lost always.... Wins and Losts will get balanced
5. Arena points and Team/ Personal rating
6. Repeat for next few weeks with some new and old players from the team depends on how it looks in ladder so I wont get punishment
7. Enjoy BIS gear


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Re: Increase base arena points for 3s and/or 5s

#27 » Post by Gnurg » 15 Oct 2016 02:15

Longi wrote:
Gnurg wrote:
Example scenario on how it would work:
1. You gather 6/10 random players.
2. You have 2 team captains (maybe the skilled players you were so worried about).
3. The captains choose their team mates, 1 by 1.
4. You play 10 games, where hopefully the teams got to be even.
5. Arena Points!
6. Repeat for next week with some new and some old players/captains. All casual.
So basically ....
1. I am team leader who needs arena rating so I find few random guys for my team
2. I have a friend ( second team leader ) who finds his team
3. We choose name ( Wintrade one , Wintrade two )
4. We play 10 games, One "good" team setup will win always, second " bad " team setup will lost always.... Wins and Losts will get balanced
5. Arena points and Team/ Personal rating
6. Repeat for next few weeks with some new and old players from the team depends on how it looks in ladder so I wont get punishment
7. Enjoy BIS gear
Why do you assume everyone is win-trading? They could do very same thing now if they wanted to, the suggestion wouldn't alter anything when it comes to this.
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Re: Increase base arena points for 3s and/or 5s

#28 » Post by Longi » 15 Oct 2016 02:23

Gnurg wrote: Why do you assume everyone is win-trading? They could do very same thing now if they wanted to, the suggestion wouldn't alter anything when it comes to this.
I do not even know :D I am at work, have nothing better to do so I am just messing around, using old " dramas " stories, trying to a bit argue with you and then I wait how you'll react....to kill time :D


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Re: Increase base arena points for 3s and/or 5s

#29 » Post by Doctor_J » 15 Oct 2016 11:58

Gnurg wrote:Example scenario on how it would work:
1. You gather 6/10 random players.
2. You have 2 team captains (maybe the skilled players you were so worried about).
3. The captains choose their team mates, 1 by 1.
4. You play 10 games, where hopefully the teams got to be even.
5. Arena Points!
6. Repeat for next week with some new and some old players/captains. All casual.
Sounds like a recipe for wintrading maybe because Gnurg still wants last man standing but is disabled due to 5v5 been dead and people previously wintrading to get this achivement.

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Re: Increase base arena points for 3s and/or 5s

#30 » Post by Gnurg » 15 Oct 2016 12:41

Doctor_J wrote:
Gnurg wrote:Example scenario on how it would work:
1. You gather 6/10 random players.
2. You have 2 team captains (maybe the skilled players you were so worried about).
3. The captains choose their team mates, 1 by 1.
4. You play 10 games, where hopefully the teams got to be even.
5. Arena Points!
6. Repeat for next week with some new and some old players/captains. All casual.
Sounds like a recipe for wintrading maybe because Gnurg still wants last man standing but is disabled due to 5v5 been dead and people previously wintrading to get this achivement.
Yes, you're spot on. My only desire with this suggestion is to make 5v5 active again, so that you will enable the achievement, so that I can win-trade it.

...

I don't get why you try to place me with the cheaters of this server. I could have cheated last man stand just like the other players who got caught cheating it, but as you can see I don't have the achievement, I haven't cheated it. When I was just lacking 14 points for the '2000 rating in 3v3 achievement'/'WF shoulders' 3 years back (see highest 3s personal/team rating), I choose not to win-trade it, I rather ended the season with lacking those 14 points. When [http://www.truewow.org/bugs/view.php?id=2296]Mimirion's hardmode bugged out[/url] in Ulduar 25 and most of the other raiders wanted to just cheat it (we hadn't beaten the hardmode at that point), I decided as the raid leader to force a wipe (probably a few players who can testify for this).

If you really believe that I only want this suggestion, because it will eventually lead to me being able to win-trade the achievement, then I would love if you could present evidence that I am a cheating player who turns to exploit to reach my goals in this game. As of right now, you're a representative of the staff, who is blindly accusing me of cheating without any form of evidence.

As for the achievement, yes, I do want it enabled again. I think it's fucked up that 10 cheaters get to be the deciding outcome for whenever every single player on the server should be unable to get an achievement or not. You do write that the reason behind is low activity in the 5v5 bracket, but has 5v5 ever had any activity at all? Activity in the bracket shouldn't be the deciding factor for whenever or not that achievement is enabled/disabled, so this suggestion shouldn't impact the achievement (and tbh, this suggestion won't make everyone play 3v3 or 5v5, if lucky it might bring a few casual players together to have fun) -- Either way, that's another suggestion, that you will probably decline over some bullshit explaination.
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